"Artillery, how mobile was it really." Topic

Again, reading Thunder on the Danube, and struck by the comments regarding the Light (Mounted) Battery: Regnier.

How aggresivly it was deployed, how mobile and effective the battery. Not that long ago I was reading some ACW where (I cant recall the specific battery) a Confederate Battery was noted for the same thing, aggressive handling, being well sighted, exceptional performance.

It strikes me that these would not be noted if they were ordinary behavior. I notice in the LFS rules there is an optional rule regarding moving a battery once deployed.

Most rules have artillery as to effective, usually the quick fix is to not deploy most of the artillery, take for example Shako 2. It strikes me as a lazy solution.

Is not the big issue with artillery that it is not as easy to position correctly in real life (so to speak) as it is in a game, most flat ground has folds and dips making it far from flat. It is also much easier to manuver artillery in a game then in real lime.

Should rules take tehse into account? How hard / easy should it be to position and manuver artillery?

I was at an ACW reenactment a few years ago,where there was a gun with a limber,and I really was amazed how quickly they deployed it. A few minutes and they were firing. However, a whole battery,and the placement of that battery might be another story.

It will depend on the scale of the game. At 1" = 50 yards you have to assume the battery commander picks good ground. At 1" = 10 yards you'll need to model more of the dips and swells in the ground.

Also, take a look at:

YouTube link

Just the gun so no support items but still…

They are pulled by only two horses, not six. And they are in no hurry. Have done it much faster.

Keep in mind that how "fast" a battery deploys is a relative term….relative to how fast other armies could deploy theirs. I don't have to be objectively fast, only faster than the enemy to qualify.

They were moving very slowly over flat ground, that's why three guys were riding the chest. I am no expert, but was riding the box over rougher terrain ever an option anyone wanted to take? And did anyone want to ride the limber on the road at a faster than slow walk? I don't really know, I admit. Seems a lot safer to walk alongside and occasionally run a short distance to go into battery!

Would love to see a full speed battery reenactment (limber/unlimber and firing multiple rounds).

You might want to check the ACW thread on Artillery arc of fire. T Kindred makes some very good comments.

Time as stated is relative in wargames based on the game mechanics and time-ground-troop ratios being used.

Depends as noted on what scale you are playing – in Fire and Fury it is not so hard to deploy a battery, but every turn is half an hour

And, then, when you have to pull out of the line and re-deploy, more time

So – horse-drawn artillery over 19th century terrain, a really mobile battery would indeed be the exception

I watched a demonstration at the Petersburg battlefield. A six horse team galloped up and put a gun into action pretty fast. Yes the ground was relatively level, but regardless, it wasn't how fast the horses pulled the gun, but how fast the men dismounted and readied the gun!

Not Civil War precisely, but you might be interested in this demonstration by the modern King's Troop Royal Horse Artillery.

YouTube link

and the outdoor rehearsals at

YouTube link

There are lots of clips on YouTube of the King's Troop RHA that are worth watching. Of course, they tend to operate on flat ground for public displays.

Henry
Battlegames
battlegames.co.uk

I appreciate the responses. I was not so much interested in the time taken to deploy and fire artillery but more the ability to redeploy once set up and the ability to deploy in a well sighted position.

How easy should it be to redeploy artillery? Once set up and firing does artillery quickly move to another position, fire a bit, then move again? I doubt it.

Senarmont did it with multiple emplacements and displacements with thirty guns at Friedland in 1807 in less than a half-hour, destroying the Russian center in the process as well as repulsing a Russian cavalry counterattack, against which he had to shift trails to bring his guns to bear.

If you would like more details, let me know and I'll post them of the action.

In short, artillery companies/batteries of the period were quite mobile and could redeploy as needed on order.

Sincerely,
K

"Would love to see a full speed battery reenactment (limber/unlimber and firing multiple rounds)."

Go down to Wormwood Scrubs common in Nw London, (You'll have to get up early). Not a flat parade ground but a bumpy bit of common land, same as a field really.
Kings Troop RHA train there regularly.
Normally they train by section but occasionally the full troop is put through its paces. Pretty impressive, and extremely fast to get into action.

Just seen the link to the Youtube vid. Yes, thats "Wormy scabs" (as John Lennon once described it) The prison is in the background.

The Freidland example is a good one by 10thMarine.

But how many times did it happen? Hardly at all with large guns 12pdr+ and a low percentage with 6pdr-8pdr foot guns. Redeployment for 4pdr-6pdr horse arty was also not as common in real life compared to the tactic in boardgames.

Too many times it seems that gun batteries zoom accross the battle-board and act more like tanks than artillery. You cannot ignore the time aspect as a game mechanic designer when designing a playable and realistic set of rules.

For example a gun battery is deployed firing at infnatry. When do they stop and redeploy? It does take orders from above? How many levels from above? Time is needed from each level to send the orders to the single battery. (This is even time needed to redirect fire to a NEW target at the same position. The idea that battery commanders were aware enough of the entire battlefield situation to fire at anything other than the closest target is also a game mechanic fallacy.

Then the process of packing equipment lashing the horse to ALL the guns and wagons. Picking the right route to the new position as not to interfere with other formation movements. Then selecting the right firing position (and being in the correct place) considering clearance to set up the guns at the location and having good firing ability. Then you have to rre-deploy the equipment and place horses and support equipment in the proper position. You are now at the point to lay the guns on the new target. this is a lengthy process in itself.

Is the new assigned target even still there!

So the aspect of redeployment during a battle is a lengthy process.

In wargaming, I always find it hard to move my artillery, because the minute I limber up, it's as if it suddenly had a big white and red bullseye on it and a large sign reading "hit me". Gamers instinctively zero in on limbered guns and try to blow them up.

As to how realistic this is, I can not say.

DAF And a fun thing it was !!!

What usually happened when a battery was redeployed, at least in the ACW period, was that the order came from the Division commander, or even Corps commander. He saw the need to redeploy the battery, and sent an aide to give the orders, and then also to guide the battery to it's new location. The aide had to be familiar with the new location, and also the best route for it to get to that point.

Many times, it was nigh impossible to redeploy to a new location, or to get there quickly, because of the difficulties in maneuvering the battery and it's attendant vehicles, especially on congested roads, through fenced-in fields, small gates, and other bodies of troops maneuvering or passing through the same area(s).

Battery locations were scouted out as quickly as possible, with an eye to two things: The best field of fire, and the ease of retiring (avenue of retreat) in case things went bad.

Keep in mind that a single gun, limbered up takes up approximately 40 feet of space on the road. It takes a good amount of ground to turn that thing around. Indeed, if a battery is advancing in line, over open ground, it's going to need an area of about 100 yards width to deploy, and to turn around 180 degrees, if it needs to retire or redeploy.

In other words, it takes a lot of time, and especially space, to maneuver a battery.

There is an excellent motion picture from the early 1930s called 'Keep 'em Rolling' which is about a famous American artillery horse named Rodney who fought and was wounded in War I.

The movie was filmed at Fort Myer, Virginia and they used the troops and units there to make the film. In it they have an artillery competition between gun sections and batteries in that they race to a designated positin, unlimber, load and fire a blank round or two, limber up and race back to the starting point.

What this shows is how fast an artillery battery could move, unlimber, load and fire, limber up and move out. It does take training but it is not the most difficult thing to do. It is great to see color matched gun teams in this movie also.

Senarmont displaced and emplaced three or four times during his action and after that was over, his reserve of six guns continued to move with the infantry. Lauriston maneuvered his 102-gun battery at Wagram, Drouot his 80-gun battery at Lutzen, and other French artillery commanders did it on other fields such as Ocana, Hanau (Drouot again), Raab, Ligny, and at Waterloo French gunnners displaced their guns up to between 100 and 250 yards from the allied line after the French cavalry charges and were demolishing allied squares with point-blank artillery fire.

French gun companies moved with only one caisson per gun in combat. The other caissons were in the rear with the parcs and would move ammunition forward to the respective gun lines when the forward caissons were running low on ammunition. This constant forward movement of ammunition was quite efficient and it also kept the artillery companies footprints smaller than one might think. The company commander had his guns, limbers, and one caisson per gun to worry about at any one time.

Sincerely,
K

Were they 'under fire' during this exercise? <:^}