"Best foreign tactics copied by Britain? " Topic

The greatest compliment you can give an enemy, is to copy them. So did Britian, much?

On another thread, I was wondering what military charcteristics Britian ever copied from enemies, and if that meant the enemy was better than them.

The English copied the wait-fire-charge timing they used in the 19th centuary from the Scots. British squaddies purloined enemy waterproof boots after the Falklands (a compliment to Argentinian cobblers). And their Napoleonic open-order sniping of officers came from the Americans.

Are there any others?

Shield wall from hte Scandenavians/Vikings, Knights from teh Normans, Longbow from the welsh, pike & shot from the 30 years war, Roundheads from the Swedish & Dutch, Cavaliers from the Finnish horse in Swedish service (their tactics at least), muskets from the spanish & french.

I don't think they copied the Scots with the volley & charge thing, because they didn't really get into it until after Maida in 1805 as I understand it, by which time the Scots rebbellions weer well over.

the concept of the MBT from the Sovs & Germans (via T34 --> Panther)

"borrowing" better kit from enemy is age old & not limited to anyone wnywhere…..

Although it could be argued that we weren't exactly 'copying' Japanese tactics, the British Army eventually beat the Japanese at their own game once they fully understood the concept that 'The Jungle Is Neutral'.

The British developed some fine light infantry as a result of contact with the Indians in 18th century America.

Magical Magyars or The Golden Team
The Hungarian national team of the 50's, creative midfield that didn't rely on the wingers.
Improved by Sir Alf Ramsey, 1966

Marksmanship from the Boers

Bows from the Welsh

Cavalry that knew when to stop charging from the French

Khaki clothing from the Pathans

Thinking generals from the Prussians

Shall we go on?

Copy???

While I'm sure you may find exceptions, at least since the 100 years war, British Military doctrine was highly successful and others 'copied' them. There is no end to the list of professional British military officers that found their way into the service of nearly every continental power in Europe, Asia, Africa, and probably quite a few other places. These folks were not hired for their winning personalities. They were trainers.

This was probably most pronounced during the Victorian Period when it seemed there was nothing a thin red line could not accomplish. Why would you wish to emulate anyone when you can achieve that kind of success on a shoestring budget?

This engendered a sense of 'superiority' that would lead to all kinds of counterproductive 'traditions' and 'attitudes' during the Boer War and the Great War.

Now one can question whether or not the Brits copied stuff during WWII. But if they did, they did it 'their way' -- for better or worse.

Indeed I think you can still find this attitude in place today. IMO the Brits take a great deal of pride in their past martial achievements and no less pride in their present armed forces. Other than some NATO standardization, there are still all kinds of aircraft, weapons systems, ships, and tanks that are uniquely British.

mjc

Not quite tactics, but the British in India were so impressed by the performance of the Gurkhas that they fought against that they employed them, to the generally mutual benefit of both nations ever since.

the brits copied Bearskins from the French and …after 1871 to about 1900 or so, pointy helmets from the Germans.

Military establishments have always stolen from each other. The Brits copied and were copied in turn. Si impressed was the world with Prussian victory in 1870 many nations adopted Prussian-style uniforms.

The British started to copy German fighter tactics during the Battle of Britain using more flexible smaller fighter attack groups. The Spits could out turn the ME-109s to the German's chagrin, and the Brit fighter pilots had a fighting chance (along with radar and home turf advantage).

Military fashion is just copying the latest cool winning uniforms – like how kepis became so popular in the late 19th century, bell top shakoes in the early 19th century, and currently berets and DPM

Interestingly, on the line of "copying", look at all those Commonwealth armies that still have gorget patches for general officers

This is cross posted to the naval gaming board and I think that is an error. While the British may have "borrowed" land tactics from other nations all of it's naval traditions have been home grown. We developed naval warfare, basically from scratch. I think it is likely that we actually invented water itself.

MBT from the Sovs & Germans (via T34 --> Panther)

Neither of these was an MBT and main battle tank was a post war concept.
--
Tim

I think it is likely that we actually invented water itself.

Probably as something to put in scotch.

Tons of interesting info!

Aloysius the Gaul,
''I don't think they copied the Scots with the volley & charge thing, because they didn't really get into it until after Maida in 1805 as I understand it, by which time the Scots rebbellions weer well over.''

Well, if you read Hawley and others after Falkirk, then you'll see that the Scots' wait-fire-charge tactics were being discussed and argued about for years. That they did adopt them eventually, you only have to compare the blood-fest of Marlburian Blenheim before the '45 Scottish invasion with the 'elegent' repulses of a Vimeiro or Sorauren, after Hawley's theories had got a push from Scottish officers, by then a major clique in the British Army. Recent historians of the battle of Maida, seem to suggest that wait-fire-charge tactics were responsible for the victory, and that the original description may have been wrong…. The commander at Maida? Sir John Stuart, a Scot.

''"borrowing" better kit from enemy is age old & not limited to anyone wnywhere…..''

I meant that the Argie-style boot eventually became available as issue.

R Mark Davies
''they fully understood the concept that 'The Jungle Is Neutral'.''

I'm kind of guessing what that means. Could you explain a bit?

Frederick
''Marksmanship from the Boers''

I'd forgotton about the Boers: certainly their small group tactics were copied even during the war. But marksmanship was in British Light infantry training at Shorncliffe: as an example Plunket picked off the French General Colbert at Cacabellos in 1809.

''Bows from the Welsh''
Yes.

''Cavalry that knew when to stop charging from the French''
I mearly wonder when you think they ever got better? British cavalry were still charging impetously in the Crimea and in WW1!

''Khaki clothing from the Pathans''
Yes, the colour of the mud at the barracks in Multan, India, apparently.

''Thinking generals from the Prussians''
Ah. The 1866 Prussian victories over the Austrians were a big influence: don't forget that the ACW, just before was too. And certainly, Prussian officer training was a big influence over the military world generally. But, and it's a bit of a big but: the 'Prussian school' was represented in Britian by Hanovarian-sponsered Amry elite, who were themselves seen as anti-intellectual and anti-reform. Intellectual millitary thinking had for a long time come out of the army engineer side, since only they and the artilerists had colleges. And from Indian officers – perhaps because they had nothing much to do most of the time! One of the most famous papers on reform in the 1870s was written by Sir George Chesney, head of the Indian Civil Engineering College. I suppose more 'thinking generals' came after the British staff colleges opened in the 1870s, at which there were speakers from all over the world, not just Prussia, but the main topic there was how to learn the lessons of Crimea – something Prussian lecturers had little knowledge of. To be honest, the British Army has always been thought of as being somewhat anti-intellectual, hasn't it?

''Shall we go on?''

Please :-)

What about lancers? The British got the idea and uniforms from the Poles, and the bamboo lances from the Sikhs. But as to 'good idea', ah, that's another thing!

Cavalry that know when to stop charging from the French???
Scotts Greys and Light Brigade might just disagree…

@Pictors – naval night fighting from the Germans in WWI

Water, never drink the stuff. Fish swim in it. … WC Fields

sergeis
''Cavalry that know when to stop charging from the French???…''

Well yeeees. How long did the French keep charging impenitrable British squares at Waterloo for? Two hours was it? Not too many top marks and gold sticky stars handed out for stopping your horse that day, I'd imagine.

But I could be wrong. :-)

We are a nation of thieves, it is true. Even the English language is full of words that we have nicked!

"Say that again? Oh, that's a good word, we'll have that…"

Pointy helmets from the Prussians?

Pickelhaubes are perhaps the most famous thing. Shame the constabulary have stopped wearing theirs.

Belt fed LMGs after WW2? Then again, everyone did that and they are still proving their worth today.

Current UK joint doctrine of mission orientated orders; ie adapting your orders to meet your higher commander's intent; stems directly from Wehrmacht 'auftragstactik' and that debt to the Germans is acknowledged, at least at Dartmouth.

Why would anyone put water in whisky or whiskey?

Anyway, it's not just the Brits who copy, as many have already pointed out. Those pesky Romans, for example…

Its been pointed out that time and again under the special stress of war, an enemy's weapons are invariably credited with greater effectiveness than one's own. Perhaps this applies to tactics as well…

We are a nation of thieves, it is true. Even the English language is full of words that we have nicked!

And food of course – curry being the national dish for example!

Shield wall from hte Scandenavians/Vikings, Knights from teh Normans,

Not sure either of those count. For a start I don't think the Vikings invented the shieldwall – it goes way back before that and secondly the knight thing wasn't copied from the Normans the knights WERE the Normans – you can't really copy yourself.

"Water, never drink the stuff. Fish swim in it. … WC Fields"
That's not quite what he said. He was referring to another of their activities involving procreation.

18th century platoon fire taken straight out of the Dutch manual..

Technically they didn't get longbows from the Welsh as the Welsh are actually British so it was home grown.

The English on the other hand……

MBT from the Sovs & Germans (via T34 --> Panther)

Neither of these was an MBT and main battle tank was a post war concept.

Indeed, it is, in fact, a concept the Soviets never signed up to.

The only English/British cavalry that knew when to stop charging were in the New Model Army. But they were just proletarians what did they know ;o).

Adoption of a French lock for the Brown Bess (with internal safety) as opposed to the English lock's external safety.

Foreign tactics copied? I always thought it was how tactics were applied that counts.Crap tactics used for several years can suddenly be done properly in the right hands ;)

How are bear skins and pointy helmets "tactics"?

Everyone copies everyone else, no exceptions, ever. It's just a matter of time. E.g. after Hastings, the "English" took up mounted combat tactics; and the Anglo-Norman nobility took up fighting on foot (again), copying their conquered subjects….

Lancers after 1815?

The carpet bombing of cities from the Luftwaffe

i belive i have heard in the past.
"if its not nailed down or on fire its mine, and if i can pry it loose or put it out its mine as well."
why would any one wanting to excell ignore the best parts of outhers ideas?

Indeed, it is, in fact, a concept the Soviets never signed up to.

Primarily because they shot the man promoting it.

Infantry Fighting Vehicles modeled on the BMP-1.

Ed G

templar72
''Infantry Fighting Vehicles modeled on the BMP-1.''

Do you mean the NATO-standard Mechanised Combat Vehicles, like the Warrior and the Bradley?

Copying can be good, if you see a way to improve something by copying another and you don't then surely that is bad?

Why so down on people seeing a good idea and using it themselves?

It's a subtle Brit bashing thread angelboll…barracks

You get used to them, never post anything that takes a poke at the other side of the pond though. The wrath of God will descend upon you.

The carpet bombing of cities from the Luftwaffe

Actually they were rather better at it than the Luffwaffe – compare a picture of London in 1941 with one of any major German city in 1945.

I must admit, in a Peninsular game when I was acting as Hill, to sending British columns against French line.

138SquadronRAF

''I must admit, in a Peninsular game when I was acting as Hill, to sending British columns against French line.''

Did it work?

The Black Tower
''Lancers after 1815?''

Er, yes. Is there aomething more to that question, BT? :-)

Marksmanship didn't come from the Boers – on my wall is my Great-Grandfather's certificate of Marksmanship from his time in The Border Regt, just before the Boer War.

Prior to that it was called Musketry, a colloquial term I think was in general use right up until 1914.

The Fifteen Rounds Rapid and Mad Minute which greeted the Germans in 1914 and 1940 didn't suddenly spring out of some Rufty-tufty Farming types picking off men in Pith hats 20 years earlier.

It came about not just because our army has always been small in comparison to our continental neighbours and we like doing war on the cheap, but also because as a global Imperial police force (which the British Army essentially was) operating thousands of miles from the Royal Arnaments, you need to make every round count.

Dear Caçadores I can said what the british troops "copy" when they invaded Argentina in 1806/7.

How to eat the best meat everytime.
They were atonished of the amount of cattle here and that the inahbitants killed a cow only to took the tongue or some beef from her.

When Beresford send an punitive expedition to some Provinces which raise in revolt, he was furious about the amount of soldiers which quit the ranks (on route), killed a cow, took the meat on his packs and return to rank.
When the column made an stop to lunch, all of the soldiers made their "asado" (barbacue) copy from the locals and Beresford once again was furious because of the huge smoke that the enemy can saw in the distance.
By the way, that smoke precesely avoid our militia troops to run away. Ha!.
But Beresford too in a few days became a fan of fresh "argentine" meat and if there were not a good beef on his table he rager as a mad.

Another thing that british troops like very much (apart of our ladies!) was the dogs. The mixture of spanish dogs produce a big, brave and servicial animal. So many british troops quit the country with his dogs!.

They also admired the velocity of the indiasn rides.

About your observation of Malvinas (Falkland) you are so right. The british soldiers love our boots, but also our Browings 9" (argentine manufacturer), Colt 45" (from 1920)and Maussers (2WW).

Amicalement
Armand

Indeed, it is, in fact, a concept the Soviets never signed up to.

Primarily because they shot the man promoting it.

That made me smile – but…no. They just never believed that the best AT weapon was another tank. That's a western idea. Tanks are for exploitation.

"The carpet bombing of cities from the Luftwaffe"

Carpet bombing wasn't invented by the Luftwaffe, it was the cornerstone of the Douhet theory of terror air war.
All airforces in the first half of the 20th century existed solely in order to attempt it, it was simply that the Luftwaffe were the first to get the technology and opportunity to do so. The allied airforces were the first to perfect it.

Winning.

Current as in modern British Army Tactics are based on Warsaw Pact tactics from the cold war.

See the 4th article down on this page link

I must say that British columns will beat French line but I suspect it had more to do with the moral of the defenders.

Cacadores
"Do you mean the NATO-standard Mechanised Combat Vehicles, like the Warrior and the Bradley?"

Yes. Pretty much every modern military copied it. The British have the Warrior, the US the Bradley, the Germans the Puma (I think) and the French have the AMX.

But the Soviets were the first to purpose build them that way. So I think this fits what you were looking for.

Ed G.