"Stalingrad Query?" Topic

So why didn't von Paulus try to break out? Considering that most of the troops died in prison camps, a suicidal attack might have preferred.

We are going to game a hypothetical breakout and rescue attempt to see what happens.

He was ordered not to by the Fuhrer himself. He actually positioned the mobile elements of his army for a break-out in conjunction with Manstein's relief attempt, but was not allowed to actually do anything.

Why break out when Goering himself guaranteed he could resupply the entire army by air? He GUARANTEED it.

What more could you ask for?

Please pass the rat meat and sawdust bread, please. I want to fatten up before marching to the gulag.

Ahh but he could have disobeyed just like Rommel did and Von Manstein did. So, following orders was a poor excuse. He could have broke out, then delivered the fait accompli in person to Hitler. Then he may have been shot, demoted or otherwise.

Instead he went passive aggressive and surrendered and then became part of Soviet propaganda.

I am running the event Brian is talking about. We are not playing historical. We are giving the Axis the chance to breakout.

Axis forces in Stalingrad will have four turns without a fuel shortage. Then on turn 5, turn 9, tun 13 etc. Each mobile unit will be rolling to see if they run out of fuel.

So the onus is on the Axis to breakout fast. The Soviets will continue to build up forces so if the Germans do not breakout fast, they will lose for sure.

Chris

Because there was no "von" in von Paulus. I believe one of his generals was ready to breakout and link up with Mansteins forces (against Hitlers orders) but was ordered back by Paulus.

Deal breaker. I have cancelled my time travel reservation for Stalingrad.

He was just not a very able commander and did what he thought was best for personal survival- esp after surrender. Not sure on the erzatz bread and rat meat though- that might have been a luxury. Many surrendered Germans were not even guarded and marched themselves in captivity. They were given a map of Russian field kitchens positions and sent on their way.

There was an attempt to relieve the army in December, which was beaten off by the Soviets. By the time all hope for a relief army expired, there was insufficient fuel or resources to effect a breakout, and the German troops were probably in no condition to do so anyway. From the failed German relief offensive to the point of "no hope" (so to speak) was very short -- a week or two it seems -- so the situation changed very rapidly (Manstein re-established a front 250km away from the city!). So while Paulus was against disobeying orders, it is quite possible he saw the writing on the wall anyway…

Damon.

"So, following orders was a poor excuse. "

Perhaps, in hindsight, it is a poor excuse. But it's still the reason he didn't break-out.

Encirclement battle started in November, relief in December then over a month until surrender.

6th panzer got within 30 miles. One of the things my axis players have brought up is that 2 Fallschirmjaeger and 1 Folgore Divisions were available and the planes needed to transport them since the air assault on Malta was cancelled when Rommel made a run for Cairo. (Speaking of disobeying orders)

So the German commander could if he chose to attempt a version of (Market Garden) and drop three Airborne Divisions down one of the main lines towards Stalingrad and hope Paulus at least attempts to link up and that 6th Panzer (Raus) also does better than 30 Corps did in Holland.

So lots of what ifs. I am looking forward to this battle as it should play fast and furious. The only Victory points to be won are the trapped units of Germans in Stalingrad. For each unit that escapes the Germans get a victory point. For each one that doesn't the Soviets get a victory point.

The Germans must control check points along one of the roads, trails or railroads that lead out of Stalingrad. When a line of these are controlled then supplies flow into Stalingrad and the out of fuel and food and ammo issues are resolved and then it becomes a race to see how much can get out before the Soviets close the door.

For the first 8 turns of the game the Germans will have at least 50% more points on board. Between 9-12 those points will be even. By turn 13-17 the soviets could have upto 50% more units and past 18 the Soviets will slowly but surely overwhelm the Germans.

This will hopefully be a blast. Oh and we have random Soviet winter weather to deal with as well. Starts clear, but can rain or snow or clear up. If it snows on continuous rolls things go from bad to worse. If it is sunny after snow, then it could get better.

Did I mention the hidden minefields, ambushes, etc.

I love a real campaign style historical what if?

chris

WWIIOgre,

It does indeed sound like an AWESOME campaign.

What rules are you going to use?

Please post more!

Sounds good. Erhard Raus' account of the relief attempt and the clearing of the Russian Cavalry Corp in preparation is excellent (can't remember the name of his book). If I remember correctly he says they got to 30 miles, had all the trucks and everything ready, had beaten the Russians enough on the way to have a chance of getting out but no luck. Another good book is "Infantry Leutnant in Stalingrad" by someone who I can't remember (at work at the moment) which is a diary. he indicates that soon after the encirclement they pulled back from well sited pre-existing blocking positions to the north and south of the city ready for the breakout expecting it would happen immediately and having been ordered to do so. It would suggest that 6th armee initially aimed to get out, but GroFaz ovverruled them.

I will post AAR and pictures on our website.

gamersnorth.com

40' or table in an almost X or H shape, with Stalingrad at the bottom and 6th panzer at the top, with Soviets coming from bottom and the sides.

Should be fun, we are using Flames of War rules with a bit of campaign stuff thrown in.

Chris

Most of their transport had been withdrawn in preparation for the winter.

Therefore, they'd have had to abandon all their heavy equipment and the wounded.

The risk was Korsun-Shevchenocsky on a massive scale. It wasn't going to happen.

Operation Little Saturn did for Operation Winter Storm. Manstein's entire force was in danger.

Yeah, but this is not historical simulation, but historical what if.

So arguments for or against don't matter. I will try to do my best based on my own reading and own opinion. I will gladly play in any game similar that you want to run your way.

:)

chris

I would be deeply dubious of the ability of the Luftwaffe to deploy three entire FJ divisions given that they didn't have enough transport planes to meet even the minimum resupply requirements for the pocket.

Take your point but the trouble with 'what ifs' are that, if you're not careful, you end up with self fulfilling prophecy syndrome.

e.g. If your start point is – 'If they'd done xxxxxx I think they'd have a good chance at breaking out.' Then, IMO, you are much more likely to structure your scenario such that they will break out.

Not saying that's what you're doing it's just one of the reasons I'm always wary of what-ifs.

Well, I've played plenty of (historical) breakout eastern front scenarios, and the usual lineup is:

i) relief force
ii) band(s) of desperate survivors formed into ad hoc combat groups. These may or may not have some wounded on whatever transport is available.
iii) Russian blocking groups with varying reinforcements rolling up.

But really, for everyone left behind in the pocket, it is a case of the devil take the hindmost.

Only thing is, wasn't Winter Storm aimed at reinforcing the defence rather than have Sixth Army break out? Same thing happened at Tarnopol, although despite the relief column breaking through, the supply trucks never left their start line (very wisely!).

Why didn't Goering have enough supply planes for Stalingrad? Well because a good chunk of them were never used because they were sitting ready for the airdrop of Malta.

Remember that small invasion planned for late 1942. The one that was cancelled because Rommel didn't follow the orders of the high command.

Those troops, their planes, their supplies were available. You are right that a whole divisions couldn't have been used. Perhaps parts a regiment.

In reality we are using 1-2 companies in a game where the Soviets will have 12 Battalions by the end of the battle. While the Germans will have around 9 companies

chris

The trouble with the resupply was largely one of weather--The same would have been true for a paradrop…
From what I have read about Stalingrad by the time of the attempted break in/out the 6th Army was already pretty knackered after fighting in the city--many were on short rations even before the encirclement..

I think if Paulus had tried a breakout some of the armour and better troops may have escaped but as the bulk of the landsers tried to make it out on foot the pocket would have dissolved horribly and the Soviets would have had a field day…
Then the front would have become even more fluid and with Mansteins mobile force destroyed/pinned/confused there would have been a real danger of Rostov being taken and the forces in the Causcasus being trapped as well….

"One of the things my axis players have brought up is that 2 Fallschirmjaeger and 1 Folgore Divisions were available and the planes needed to transport them since the air assault on Malta was cancelled when Rommel made a run for Cairo. "

Um no, the Folgore and Ramke para brigades (the units tasked for the Malta operation) were in the desert at the time, trying to get away from the El Alamein position with the rest of DAK. Rommel got them as they were the only fresh troops in the Med with which he could be reinforced.

The transport planes were in Russian, however, being shot down in droves as they tried to keep Stalingrad supplied.

The drop on Malta did not happen, those troops could have been sent to Russia. That is part of the what if. Hitler could have decided that getting his troops out of Stalingrad was more important than anything else.

Some will have to stay behind and fall, but that is better than all staying behind and falling.

That is the what if of this scenario.

The moment that the Germans start moving away from the Volga, the Soviets will get troops right behind them pushing them at every moment, with more pouring in from the flanks.

Historically the Germans lose everything at Stalingrad and the war. Who would want to play a simulation of first you starve, then you freeze, then you surrender and finally you die.

That sounds like a great game. Is your next idea concentration camp breakout? Simulation is well and good, but takes away from the idea of a game. A game is a suspension of belief, a chance to rewrite history, a chance to change everything.

But who would want to do that. :)

Have fun, its a game, its not real, no one dies, no one freezes, no one starves

The problem with sending the paras to Stalingrad is that they were already in the desert before the Soviets surrounded Stalingrad, so they are already committed.

Of course, you can 'what-if' to your heart's delight, but I tink allowing Paulus to organize a break-out is much more plausible then sending the paras who are already busy elsewhere.

Every paratroop unit in the reich and for Italy were committed in the line? As of November 42?

August 42 Ramcke is at El Alamein, then falls back without vehicles except what they capture. At this point before 43, Hitler still could have pulled them out of the line and reformed them for use in Russia.

In November, the Folgore could have been pulled out of the line reinforced and sent to Russia. They could not have been allowed to be lost.

That is nice about what if. I would not have sacrificed the DAK, the Folgore nor 6th army. But then again, I would have taken Malta much earlier and then reinforced Afrika to break the back of England.

But, that is the nice thing about what if. And yes I play WIF, Cross of Iron, World at War and so many other simulations of the entire WWII. Including pbem's from almost 30 years ago.

Chris

Here is a nice link to why the Italians could have had paratroops sent to Russia. The same can be said for the Germans as well, instead of letting the regiment be wiped out, it could have been pulled out, brought upto strength and sent on its way.

Besides, sending the para's in JU-52's is only a matter of a few days that they are not supplying Stalingrad, which they didn't do anyway.

Chris

nembo.tripod.com/nembopage.html

wargaming is all about what-if? Sure we deploy the troops and historical tweaks to rules etc but the great thing about it is we can rewrite history for a few hours. Personally, I think the relief would have been quite effective. The Russian forces surrounding Stalingrad were not in the best shape, the Cavalry army to the north was effectively out of the way. I disagree, The 6th army would have got away a good proportion of its strength but those unable to move would have been lost. Looking at it from another way though, if the 6th had got out would it have been worse for the Germans. The siege of Stalingrad tied up Soviet resources to some degree and allowed Von Manstein to shore up his line and then counterattack IMHO. I know others will disagree.

Anyway I think it is a cracking topic for a game sneakgun and hope it is a load of fun for you all,

cheers
Jon.

"The Russian forces surrounding Stalingrad were not in the best shape"……Possibly Jon but they were in a much better shape than the 6th Army--At least they had food/fuel for fires etc--it has been estimated that a soldier fighting in sub-zero temps would need in the region of 8000 calories a day(at least)…The poor sods in the pocket were lucky if they got 800!! And the food they had was very low in nuitrition and vitamins so disease was rife.
Also the Germans were caught in a situation for which they were completely psychologically unprepared-DEFEAT!! They had been humbugged by the Soviets who had been planning this classic battle of envelopment since before September…You can't really blame Paulus for being paralysed and not doing the 'right' thing? The Russians are stupid and have bad tactic…….right???