"Shelving my 1/72 or 20mm project" Topic

I've been working on my 1/72 Arthurian project to go with Song of Arthur and Merlin. While there are some nice figures out there, there are too many holes in the range. HaT has some nice looking Roman Cavalry that would have rounded out their Late Roman line nicely. However, they have not materialized in over a year! The Saxons, Picts and Irish are more problematic. The only two figure sets for Picts are from HaT and from Redbox. Neither is a great set and are very limited. Saxons can be doubled in as Goths. the garb is very similar. Thank goodness from that.

The clincher came when I was painting a few Newline designs 1/72 scale Franks and Goths. These are very nice sculpts. I was working on the shading and highlighting of the face. As I was adding detail I realized how much more crisp the sculpt was over the plastic counterparts. The detail just simply popped when I added the shade and highlight colors, something that never seemed to happen with the plastic figures.

Finally, there is the matter of figure cleanup. With metal, you can use jeweler files to clean up metal. You need to scrape with a knife on plastic figures as filing seems to shred the plastic.

So, they are going to get shelved for a while until I decide how to utilized them…probably until the ranges become a little more full. In the mean time, I am going back to 28mm for my skirmish gaming needs. You can get what you want, though for a higher price. SAM requires only about 10-15 figures per side so that is not a huge deal.

I do think there is a place for 1/72 plastics, and that place is clearly in old school styled massed combat games where you remove figures as casualties. You can get many may figures on the table for a reasonable price.

John

I'll start by admitting that I'm not a fan of soft plastic figures – had my fill of them when they were pretty well all that a schoolboy and student could afford back in the 60's.

These days I'm strickly small scale – huge numbers, but in 10mm or smaller, mostly 6mm. 20mm &/or 1/72 never really appealed to me once I had a realistic choice and being plastic just made it worse. To be honest I preferred the rather rubbishy early 15mm to them. Something to do with weight – easier to handle because of that and a metal figure has more satisfying 'heft' to it.

Cleaning up is a nightmare, though I'll admit they probably need less of it than many 15's. It was bendy weapons that really got to me. If plastic is bent it stays bent, lead bends back.

I've seen some of the more recent stuff that mates have bought and I can't say that I'm impressed. Up to half the box is unusable figures and recently they seem to expect you to assemble the damn things too.

Rigid plastic is a different ballgame but I'm not likely to bite unless they do them in smaller sizes – which is unlikely and probably wouldn't be much cheaper anyway.

If they have a place I can't see it being in my armies.

It's a hobby so you have every right to decide what you will buy and play with. Don't like a particular range or set of plastics. Not an issue. However, I always get irked when lead snobs start to spout nonsense. The heft point is silly. A metal washer can resolve that immediately. Not sure about the point of bendy weapons. The new plastic used by most companies makes it a non-issue. The unusable pose point is simply untrue. I like both metal and plastic figs. Each has an appeal to me. I also REALLY like 1/72 scale. It has the advantage of being a fraction of the cost of 15mm, but with a similar footprint. It is also as easy to paint. I also appreciate the fact that most plastics are anatomically correct. Most 15mm metals simply are not close to what actual humans look like.

Saying that more erecent releases aren't detailed as much as 15mm is also incorrect. Take a look at Zvezda or Ceaser or many other Companies to see that simply is untrue.

Bottom line play with what you like. However, try not to spout old wive's tales about plastic figs.

Thanks,

John

Lead bends back? True but just as often in snaps off.
Bent lead sheds paint, funnily enough this is often a criticism of plastic figures- as it was unique to them.

I agree that 1/72 figures are more anatomically correct in the proportions. But I actually prefer the distorted proportions of metal figures.

My 20mm plastics are undercoated in PVA so the hardly bend at all.

I do so hate cleaning the flash off them though, otherwise they are lovely.

So here is why I would stay with plastics…

1) An old school wargame with single figures. I want more visual effect without the higher cost. Plastic is the way to go.

2) Getting my kids into the hobby. It is a good way to get them painting without spending a lot of money. This way, if they don't like it, I have not lost too much.

Now some periods, as I have mentioned before, are deeper than others. You can or soon will be able to do about anything you want in the Punic Wars. HaT has a huge range for that. Most of the figures are in reasonable poses as well.

The Napoleonic wars is well represented by several companies as is the ACW. Some of the other ranges of the "black powder" era are a little under represented. However, you can fill the gaps in with some metal figures in 20mm in a pinch.

My passion was for the post roman era and the armies I wanted are just not there.

John

I'm not a 'lead snob' any more than you are a plastic 'fan boy'. If you had bothered to read the post properly before you climbed on your high horse you'd have worked out that the bendy weapons refferred to were those I owned back in the 60's & early 70's as I haven't bought any since. Having said that, however, many illustrations seen on line seem to have them.

I don't intend to stick a washer on every figure just to hadle it and paint it – that is just damn stupid.

I never mentioned anything about detail on recent figures, just that I wasn't impressed. It wasn't actually ever a problem with detail – some of the old Airfix figures were very well detailed.

I take your point about proportions and, if that is an issue that's important to you, then it is a definite plus for many plastic ranges and their sculping style. Considering that most figures are viewed on a wargaming table from above, I don't see it as an issue so it doesn't bother me.

Personally I don't find them easy to paint (I did a few as a favour to help a pal finish an army for a tournament a few years ago). The spindly limbs (cf 15mm style) were actually more akward than 15mm.

The unusable pose IS true – for me – in some boxes I have seen on the web that might have been options for me, 30-50% of the figures I would not have used.

So you see John I don't spout 'old wives tales', just my opinions.

Lead alloy figures do readily bend back into shape without much of a problem. Lead free alloys are more of a problem but spears are easily replaced. I have two units of pikemen nearly 20 years old that have been reshaped numerous times and never lost a shred of paint – its all down to the preparation – just as it is with plastic.

He has a point about many holes in a line. I've been researching 1/72 for WHFB, Warmaster Ancients, and TSATF. I have noticed this.

I also think plastic boxes are not meant for wargaming, making it difficult to get certain figures. Standard bearers and command figures are extremely rare on sprues, even though we need them for every unit in our games. Generals tend to be no where in sight. Entire troops are missing as well or only offered by inferior companies like Stretlets (ugh!).

Colonials are extremely difficult to do, though HaT in their weird wisdom has been releasing the cart before the horse. Why Highlanders and camel troops but no regular infantry? How are we supposed to game that period without the basics?

ACW is nearly impossible to do for the same reasons.

So I see John's points. My big gripe has been the holes for many periods, other than WWII, which seems buttoned up AFAIK. Still, 1/72 draws me to it like a moth to flame!

I'm definitely pro-1/72 but even I admit flash is a real problem. Depending on the softness of the plastic a hot pin or a razor blade is the thing but it's true that metal figs clean up in a fraction of the time. The whole paint flaking off thing is such a non-issue and so easily dealt with that I'm surprised it still gets mentioned.

As to the OP – you are right that plastic ranges take a long time to complete, if ever. And quality can be inconsistent even within one brand (yes HaT, that means you). I mix metals in when necessary but the best plastics can't be beat IMO.

BTW I always laugh about how gamers complain how poorly this or that figure or scale paints up. From my experience, about 90% of gamers can't paint worth a lick regardless of the figure or the scale! Looks good from 3' is my rule.

Gildas,

I don't think John's comments are directed at you. I think you made a sound case for why you don't game with plastics. Mostly he just posted his experiences.

He is a big collector of 1/72 (20mm) stuff and you are a big collector of all things metal. Good enough!

John

BTW I always laugh about how gamers complain how poorly this or that figure or scale paints up. From my experience, about 90% of gamers can't paint worth a lick regardless of the figure or the scale!

Ain't that the truth!

The few plastic 20mm that I have painted recently (rather than the many I painted as a teenager) came out quite well but were just more difficult than 15mm, which I was more used to then.

acarj – yes he was – he always jumps in on anyone he thinks is cricising his beloved plastics, and he is often justified – but not in this case.

Anyhow, it is a pretty pointless argument 'cos its always 'horses for courses' – look at the stick I get when I mention 2mm. I love the little s but some twits still come up with all the ancient gags.

Nom De Guerre – I'm not that sure the holes in ranges still exists to the same extent. Few metal companies offer even a fraction of the available Napoleonics from HaT, Zvezda etc. Course, it depends on what you are looking for – there's always an unfinished range somewhere, but that's true for metal figures too.

acarhj : link may be of some use for your saxons, and could also provide some Arthurian cavalry (maybe)

Oh, and the looks good from 3' comment ? Very true, which is why I'm on purpose trying to simplify my paint jobs so that I can paint faster without tryting to (and usually failing to ) make every one an icon.

20thmaine,

Thanks for the link. I already own a box. They do look good but, like many of the MiniArt figures, there is a large amount of clean-up to do. The cavalry in the box is quite nice and they all paint up very nicely.

The other problem with this and other sets is that they have a sampling of different tribes. So, you don't get all of, say, Goths. You get a few goths, a few franks , a few Dacians and so forth.

John

For the record I own probably more metal than plastic figs. They number in the 10's of thousands at a minimum. I started with 1/72 back in the 60's. Both Airfix and Helen of Toy plastic soldiers on the back of comic books. I did post that folks are free to like and play with whatever they prefer. It is a hobby after all. My point had more to do with pointing out that when it comes to 1/72 figures a LOT of ill informed info is often tossed out as virtual fact.

Metal washers are often used for games like WAB or skirmish games. So, certainly it isn't abnormal to do. Frankly, heft can work against you. Carry a few hundred metal figs around to a show. Drop a plastic stand of figs from 4 feet and then a metal stand of figs. Heft isn't always a great thing. It isn't a problem for me or a lot of others. Typically, it IS tossed around by lead snobs as a valid reason. That comment pushed a button for me. Combined with the other points, lack of detail, few usuable poses and I'm not a fan are all code speak that I'm used to hearing. If you haven't paid attention to plastics since the 60's or 70's WHY would you make a comment about a subject based on such dated information?

I could care less what folks play with. I tend to like em all! :-D I just like to try and stop the misinformed posts painting a picture of plastics to those who know little or nothing about them.

More to the topic at hand, I have planned a similar thing using plastics with the Merlin/Arthur supplement. Not entirely sure if I'll use plastics or 25mm. May do plastics so my son can jump in and get his own stuff more cheaply.

Thanks,

John

You can clean soft plastic up with a pyrogravure (essentially, a low temperature soldering iron). It's also a useful tool for smoothening out any facets remaining from cuts, adding texture to hair, manes, and tails, and welding conversion joins.

You can clean soft plastic up with a pyrogravure (essentially, a low temperature soldering iron). It's also a useful tool for smoothening out any facets remaining from cuts, adding texture to hair, manes, and tails, and welding conversion joins.

A wood engraver? Never thought of that. How is the smell though? Sounds like something you'd have to do outside.

It's been a few years since I have used a wood engraver for that purpose, so I don't quite remember. In the meantime, I used a soldering iron to fuse the ends of some nylon cord – that smelled, and gave off what were probably fairly toxic fumes.

You might use something like a dimmer switch or similar to adjust the current and control the temperature so that it is just high enough to melt, but not burn the plastic.

Without that sort of fine control, safety glasses are a good idea, as is good ventilation. A wet sponge can be useful for scraping off any melted plastic that sticks to the tool.

At least, using a pyrogravure is probably better than using the old pin-stuck-in-a-cork-and-held-in-a-candle-flame approach, which does lead to burnt plastic (in the candle flame)…

Finally, there used to be pyrogravures that were supposedly intended for plastic modelling. They probably cost more than ordinary wood-burners, but may reach a more suitable temperature for plastic.

I find plastic much easier to convert than metal, and just much cheaper. It's just much better to deal with.

I'm a fan of plastics, though a little elderly to still be regarded as a fanboy.
Many critics of plastics base their complaints that "They're not like metals", but I think your concerns are altogether more legitimate.

Plastics and metals are different in many ways:
* Economics of production.
* Techniques for cleanup and priming.
* Physical limitations of mound and material.

The economics mean that plastics can provide large numbers of figures, but the ranges are more limited.
Material limitations make long thin weapons less tenable in plastic.

Both these factors count against ancients and dark ages.
Variety of troops is a strength of the periods, and most armies feature a considerable number of long pointy weapons.

I've looked at releases of some beautiful ancient and medieval figures in plastic and considered collecting armies for the age.
Then the reality check of missing troop types and spears and lances struck.
I've concluded that plastics are better suited to firearms armies, so stuck with Naps, ACW and WW2.

Steve – maybe the "hard" plastic boys need to consider giving people the choice of substituting metal pikes/spears etc. Perhaps by ring or open hands?

It is one of my biggest problems with hard plastic (being a soft bendy fan – oh er!) that I first noticed with the Uruk Hai pikes – most broke within the first week of playing with my kids, and they are pigs' ears to replace properly.

I use metal spears as flag poles with my bendy chaps now.

I much prefer 20mm metal over others. For most of the reason given i like that they are slightly bigger than 15mm, but still small enough for large battles, while (generally) having more detail.

The issue for me is more the lack of choice in 20mm metal. Very few companies produce them in comparison to 15 and 28mm and new releases are few and far between.

I know i have a few projects i would like to do and will end up doing some private commissions to see them done. :)

Hi John! I am the opposite, I am doing away with my 28mm armies and going into 1/72s. I am gearing towards Warhammer Ancient Battles, so though the minis are smaller, once mounted on slotta bases they will take up the same amount of space.

Though I am new to 1/72s, I understand what you mean about the difficulty of getting exactly the troop types you want without a lot of wasted figures. For me though, just coming out of 28mm metals, I don't mind paying for an extra 1/72 box or two to get what I want, it's still cheaper than a whole army of metals, don't you think? I am a little concerned that some troop types won't be available at all, but since I am just starting out, I won't worry too much yet.

Anyway, I do hope that you will find use for your 1/72 Roman/Arthurian project, it sounds like you put a lot of work into it.

--- Gerry Lee

I guess the problem may be in interpretation more then any thing else the tendency is for recognisable factions, most of the evidence for these is scarce to say the least and mostly based on dodgy modern artists interpretions…
The one thing you can be sure of is the types of weapons used and these dont tend to vary in any way that would be recognisable in 1/72, the same can be said of shields and armour and to a large extent clothing…

The bulk of any army at this time would be likely lightly equipt mostly armed with spears and predominatly round shields of various sizes and a side arm of some sort, with a few of the wealthier individuals with armour and probarbly a horse.. no one wants to trudge on foot very far in full battle kit on poor roads…
The only real difference being the size and determination of the Barbarian invaders and their lack of any mounted skill in battle…. my advise would be to mix as much as possible and avoid regular or faction looking units…

Cheers