"About those Pictish long spears?" Topic

Since we have been talking about Picts recently I wondered if anyone could tell me why we think Picts carried long spears or even as DBMM has it pikes? Is this history working backwards from later Scottish pikemen?

Yes, I think it is just a weird anachronism.

They don't have long spears in the one or two picture stones that feature spears (although they might have been truncated to fit in with the design). There's no particular reason that I can think of, why they should have used unusually long spears.

The Aberlemno Stones (which I visited just a few weeks ago – and thus have been thinking about this issue) shows a man with a sword and shield and behind him a man with a spear projecting out past the swordsman. The spear is sort of long, but it is certainly not a classic pike formation. It looks very much like the standard SCA/re-enactor tactic of a shield wall with spearmen behind poking at the opposing line through the gaps. I think the pike thing is a gaming myth that found its way into rules at one point and now is expected.
picture

Yep Qurchi, I have pictures of most Pictish stone carving and while the spear is longish and taller than the spearman its no longer than the Gar we think was carried by Angles etc. Of course it could be an artistic convention and the spacial limitations of the medium for a much longer spear/pike. But why do 'we' think that is so?

I believe there is a Roman document describing them as "long men with longer spears" which is where I believe this came from. I'm going to do some googling to see of I can find those quotes.

They did have the correct type of timber and the required technology.

x42

I use them as Celtic warbands for post Roman/Arthurian times. No long spears. Short melee spears only. There is a tone with a man with a long spear, a dog and another with a net. This I think is a hunt.

If you are talking post Arthurian, then I think you have a stronger case for spears and phalanx like tactics.

Aye,we're still "long men wi' longer spears"

I suspect that most authors' interpretations of the Aberlemno figures stems from their holding the spears two-handed, suggesting a much longer spear or pike than normal.

Anyway, it's in an Osprey, so it must be true:

link

Allen

Acarhj, I don't think its a hunt, not with a warrior with sword and shield and dead bodies and attacking horseman.

Aye reccerat but are you also short men with longer spears?

Yes Allen, the two handed grip might be the genesis of this theory.

If you don't have a shield, it's much easier to parry with it when using it 2-handed…

Obviously easier to maneuver it around rapidly to stab too

I wondered if anyone could tell me why we think Picts carried long spears or even as DBMM has it pikes?

I suppose pointing out that the DBMM classification as Pk(F) does not mean they were armed with pikes would be rude?

Not at all Nik.

It is a far step from "long" spears to pike formations.

I don't have a problem with Picts having "long spears" (with or without game mechanics) but I do think that giving them Pike schiltron against the Romans is overstating the case.

Acarhj, I don't think its a hunt, not with a warrior with sword and shield and dead bodies and attacking horseman.

Aye reccerat but are you also short men with longer spears?

Yes Allen, the two handed grip might be the genesis of this theory.

It was another stone I was talking about. One with a dog, a man with a spear an archer (crossbow?) and a net i think. I could not find the image on the net.

The Aberlemno stone is clearly combat. It also is dated to late 6th, early 7th century, which is fine. I generally game Picts in the post roman/arthurian period. I think there is a distinction there…or at least little evidence they used long spears at this time.

Hi

it is one of my pet peeves in wargaming to obsess like this. The essence of "Phalanx" is the drill not the weapon. At least that is the thinking we had for our Art of War rules.

And not all Phalanx act the same.

Rocky

just to clarify.

Pk(F) does not mean Pikes (Fast) or something similar.

So ,in fact, we are discussing a potentially incorrect interpretation of art which was not actually made and which does not exist.

is that a correct understanding of the question?

Are there any other Scots slightly concerned about the references to two handed shaft holding?

Perhaps Mel Gibson should make a movie about the Picts, then we'd have the historical verification…

Keraunos, Since you asked here is the DBMM definition of Pike(F)"Foot armed with long thrusting spears and fighting in dense formations in good terrain but partly or entirely lacking effective shields and able to scamper quickly over hills such as North Welsh spearmen or late 15th Century Japenese Ashigaru."

Now consider illustrations of Japnese Ashigaru and ask yourself is that the sort of weapon Picts carried? Is that what the sculptors of the Aberlemno stone were showing us? What is the evidence for Pictish long spears?

Hope the question is clearer now.

I suppose pointing out that the DBMM classification as Pk(F) does not mean they were armed with pikes would be rude?

We need an ISO standard telling us how long a pointy stick has to be called a pike.

(If I'm bitter, it's because I recently read a bit about ancient cavalry throwing pikes at one another.)

Dumb question: can you only use a pike in a phalanx?

Depends what you mean by phalanx and what you mean by pike. But a long spear or pike requires the users to bunch up close and in ranks to get the maximuum benefit. The benefit being more killing points to the front than your opponent. Obviously North Welsh spearmen were a different proposition to Macedonian pikemen but both projected a wall of points offensively and defensively that was numericaly superior to that of traditional spearmen.

I think its simply the use of the 'P' rather than say 'LS' that is the confusion here – in DBMM terms, as I understand them.

long spears and running about – no problem. Pikes and run? no chance.

as for the picts and having them, well, I wouldn't have gone past spear myself, its the fast part that would be challengable.