"An ignoramus' Tannenberg question" Topic

Dear TMPers,

for next year we wanted to organise a Tannenberg FOG game and I've agreed to paint and contribute 12 28mm Knights.Since then I've found out that GB is not the way to go, as the battle was in the 15th century and GB's knights are earlier… models :). I've also found out that Perry and Kingmaker would be good providers for suitable miniatures. Now, Kingmaker equips their Knights with… are these Heater Shields? Perry on the other hand uses the… Targe?

Well, as you can tell, I am a total ignoramus concerning the time in question… Do I have to use a certain type of shield? Or are both legitimate options for Teutonic knights of the time?

I thank you for your – hopefully – incoming help.

Regards,

P

Most knights in the 15th century didn't use shields anymore, not even mounted. But knights would only use the "heater". Round "targes" are an infantry shield….

Here's a neat pic: picture

Both shields are correct for the period. Until about second half of the 15th century most knights used shields. Nor all knights could afford the latest plate armor. Both Perry and Kingmaker shields are correct as individual knights would choose or buy their own equipment. Even in military order unit there would be some variation in helmets/shields.

GB knights are from 13th century, Tannenberg was in the beginning of 15th century.

Thank you for the replies. It's great to have a bit of a choice. Does anyone know if Perry and Kingmaker go well together in a unit?

That is a neat picture. Heaters seem to predominate there.

It is also my understanding that the Poles carried shields after they fell out of favor in Europe.

Oh, I found a comparison shot on the Kingmaker site… They fit nicely together it seems.

Kingmaker might be better as they are Central European models. Perry's Agincourt to Orleans range is for Western Europe. Teutonic Knights were overwhelmingly German and would have worn Central European style dress and armour, and their horse furniture would have been Central European too.

I'd suggest you use KMH20 for unit command, KMH23 and KMH24 as knights, then some other code for the last three, armoured cavalry with a lance who are not knights. I'd give you the code but the website is so slow to load pages that I just gave up!

In other words, it's ok to have one or two models in the unit, probably commanders, on barded horses, but most should not be. Also not a bad idea to have a pack of guys in the rear who have less armour on.

One thing to keep in mind is that the Teutonic Knights commonly used a shield in this period that looked like a little pavise. If you can get those, use them! Though the heater is ok too. I'd look on the Kingmaker website to see if I could find any cavalry with that shield, to show you what I mean, but the site just freezes up when I try to load pages. Hussite cavalry used it too, so maybe Knigmaker has some.

Last suggestion -- see if you can find the old Testudo knight models, they were made just for the Battle of Tannenberg and are very cool! But sadly out of production.

Wow… that is a great contribution. Thank you. I know what you mean… The shields with the fold running vertically through the entire shield. They are part of the Hussite Command blister, so I can imagine that I could order some extra.

Testudo sounds very interesting and the internet is full of recommendations. Sadly I haven't seen any yet in the flesh and – as you've said – they are OOP.

For the fourth blister I might take some Hussite heavy cavalry. They got this helmet that looks like a plate and look a bit less armoured.

Thank you so much.

Are you doing specifically Teutonic Kn ights or would any knights do? There were quite a few "guest crusaders" in the Teutonic knights forces from time to time. Also the Testudo figures are either back in production or coming back in production. So you might want to check that out to see what is up.

Thank you, Pictors Studio. Do you have any idea if Testudo would fit the Kingmakers sizewise? If so I might start with half the force now and see if Testudo comes back before our game. I am quite a slow painter, so a head start might be clever.

And yeah, I was given the assignment to paint a dozen of specifically Teutonic Knights.

No go on the Testudo/KM mix, the Testudo are humongous.

Pictors, the Gastritters had dried up by the time of Tannenberg. It wasn't fun to go partying out east anymore.

Testudo AFAIK are a no-go, unless you have some info on someone having picked up the range? Hope so, they were very characterful models.

Testudo Miniatures have been aquired by the guy who sculpted them (Guiseppe Rava) I have a number of the Knights, and they match in just fine with my Front Rank, Perry Miniatures and Kingmaker stuff.

Tannenberg, The Order fielded around 250 or so RitterBruder ( full knights in the white and black get up)The remaining Order knights would be half brothers and sergeants.

There were a number of "guest" knights on the Order side with their own contingents, they had not dried up by this time, as a call had gone out prior to the battle requesting assistance, and a few turned up from Austria, Swabia, Bavaria and Westphalia. There were also a number of mercenaries too.
The German crusaders apparently lost the battle for the Order, when they went off in pursuit of the fleeing Lithuanians and Tatar cavalry, this led them into a trap where they were pretty much wiped out. The Grand Master decided to risk all in an attack on the Polish command position, he nearly made it, but the returning Lithuanians saved the day, and he died.

Order knights would have a mix of Eastern European and Western gear, the Ritter Bruden would have the best kit available.

I quite happily mix Testudo, Perry, Front Rank and Kingmaker figures in my army.

The other side is more of a problem, especially the Lithuanians. I have figures from Essex, Gripping Beast and Molniya masquerading as these, and all sorts of Mongol light horse playing the Tatars.

TMP link

last two comments, looks promising I think.

what's the difference between a "kite" shield and a "heater" shield

"Kite" is long in the sides; "heater" is like a flat-iron (heater). The "kite" is long-gone by the early 15th century (actually gone by end of 12th century)….

Wonderful news on the Testudo restart. I might wait a bit before I buy anything, I think.

The guys fielding the Lithuanians have already realised the problem of finding suitable miniatures. I am happy I am not in their shoes really. :)

How does one distinguish between eastern and western gear in those times? Any good hints or publications for that?

Phobos, it is definitely good news about the Testudo range! I'd suggest writing them though at the e-mail on the website, as when New Testudo was still operating I balked at having to pay $6 USD for an infantry crossbowman. Finding out the price would be a good start, or you may end up waiting for something that, in the end, is priced astronomically.

Once you get some, assuming you do, you'd want to compare them to the Kingmaker models before mixing. I wouldn't, personally, as they are sculpted in a different style and they are of a different size than the KM, but in the end it's what the gamer is happy with, so taking a look first is best.

Villageidiot, some responses. The Gastritter had indeed largely dried up by Tannenberg. German crusaders were not gastritter, they were considered to be different and, more to the point of this thread, they would be in Central European armour.

(Phobos, for a good description of the differences in armour styles, take a look at Heath's book Armies of the Middle Ages Volume II, if you can find it as I think it's out of print. If not, the Osprey book on German Medieval Armies 1300-1500 might suffice, but I don't remember if it gives as lengthy a description of the differences between Western and Central European armour and dress styles as Heath has.)

There were a handful of Western Europeans, Southern Europeans and Scandinavians that showed up for Tannenberg but perhaps just enough for one model in an entire Tannenberg army. There were lots of Hungarians, but they hired themselves out as mercenaries to both sides, sometimes switching sides right before battle or sitting it out altogether.

Also the Order fielded a lot more than 250 ritterbrudern at Tannenberg, the number probably being closer to 700. We are told that all but 15 of the 700 white-cloaks at Tannenberg perished at the battle.

Brethren appear to have been delegated to command of units of non-brethren troops. The only squadron at the battle that was entirely made up of Brethren would have been the Marshal's, even the Hochmeister having some mercenaries in his squadron. But there were multiple squadrons that had white-cloaks in them, and probably all of the vassal squadrons (and perhaps the mercenaries) were commanded by a bruder.

Knightly elements of the TK armies were made up of 1) brethren, 2) TK vassals, 3) German crusaders, 4) mercenaries (in 1) and 2) above -- vassals and brethren both hired mercenaries before battles) and 5) at times, foreign adventurer gastritter.

ALL of the knightly elements, ritterbrudern included, would have knights and non-knights mixed in the same units. The gleven (lances) that the Order fought in were roughly identical whether the men were brethren, vassals, mercenaries or crusaders/"guests." They'd have the knight, another armed horseman, and one or two infantrymen on horseback with a bow or crossbow. Opinions differ as whether these would fight mounted in the east.

Phobos, I'll bet everyone painting the TK are doing white cloaks. You might want to consider painting a unit of vassals, as they often fielded large numbers of the knights in a full-blown TK army, and they are not all in white. You would do one man as a brother knight in white mantle, leading the unit, then a bunch of vassals. I have a lot of the colors of the vassals and flags if you're interested; I'd be happy to dig them up and post some.

Interesting

So where did you get your 700 Ritterbruden figure from Camelspider ?

Both Urban and the Osprey Tannenberg book give a figure of 250 of which 203 were killed/captured
Fuhrman says no more than 300 were present

You are correct that the crusade was effectively over by 1400, however the call for Crusaders was made, because the Poles/Lithuanians were fielding heathen allies. It was hard for the Order to justify fighting Christian troops and Poland/Lithuania were apparently converted Christians by Tannenberg (big question mark over the Lithuanians though!!!)

Looking thru my collection of pics, the actual plate armour does not differ a huge amount, the Eastern armies used a lot of scale type armour, and the headgear is different.

A mix of different types would be acceptable, perhaps leaning more towards the Kingmaker figures, as they sport the correct gear.

Phobos
If you want to do the RitterBruden follow Camelspiders lead and paint up just a few in the full fighting regalia, and add some other knights and a few Sargeants in grey mantles.

drop me a mail at nigel dot higgins at btinternet dot com

and I'll send you some pics of different troop types.

Well, I think that I am expected to present a…"pure" Teutonic force. Would that then be unhistorical? From what I've understood from Camelspiders very helpful post, a unit of brethren would still be an option, even if of course a bit boring and predictable. :) Hm… might have to talk to my more-informed-than-me buddies.

Of course I'd be very interested in every bit of information and pictures. And certainly so would my co-players. Villageidiot, an email is on the way.

EDIT: Oh, and of course, I'd like to help you for your invaluable help once more.

Phobos, remember that "pure" Teutonic forces were mostly non-Teutonic! The bulk of the forces would have been supplied by the vassals of the Order, who would be German, Polish, or native, and these would have colors other than the white with black that most of your mates will probably be painting. Of course there is an appeal to painting the white cloaks as well. These did field a handful of self-contained squadrons, but most of the white cloaks you'd see on a battlefield would probably be officers in units, or perhaps sometimes fielding the front rank of a vassal or mercenary force.

So where did you get your 700 Ritterbruden figure from Camelspider ?

From Ian Heath's Armies of the Middle Ages, Volume 2, who cites Sienkiewicz, who Heath says in turns cites Eastern European sources.

You are correct that the crusade was effectively over by 1400, however the call for Crusaders was made, because the Poles/Lithuanians were fielding heathen allies. It was hard for the Order to justify fighting Christian troops and Poland/Lithuania were apparently converted Christians by Tannenberg (big question mark over the Lithuanians though!!!)

Well, as far as the Order was concerned the Crusade was certainly not over! But as Heath says the presence of non-German adventurers in Prussia was rare after 1400, and even rarer in Livonia. Germans contined to come of course, but they, naturally, would wear German styles.

Looking thru my collection of pics, the actual plate armour does not differ a huge amount, the Eastern armies used a lot of scale type armour, and the headgear is different.

Take a look at Heath's two Armies of the Middle Ages books, and compare the German images to those of the same time periods in the West. The'yre not so different as to be from another planet, of course, but there certianly are differences is shapes of equipment, furniture, time periods of usage and so on that to me add up to a need for unique figurines. It's all a matter of how particular one is about appearance -- personally I would rather have less of a figure mix and have my models in Central European styles than have more selection and use some Westerners, but that's just a personal preference.