"So what actually happened to the Peninsular War veterans?" Topic

Okay, so Wellington had a pretty ing good army by the time of Bonaparte's first abdication; I think most of us can agree on that much. But what happened to all those great troops?

The Waterloo-o-philes all say "no, no, they weren't at Waterloo. Those vets were all sent to North America."

But then all the 1812-a-holics all say "no, no, they weren't here, either."

What gives? Is this just another case of British "underdog propaganda syndrome", or did the Peninsular vets actually see more action somewhere?

About 18 of the 26 British infantry regts. at Waterloo were Peninsular veterans. (From Bowden's Armies At waterloo)
Plus all the KGL Bns. as well.

A bunch were sent to the stupidly ill conceived frontal assault at New Orleans weren't they?

Some were; more were sent to the equally ill conceived invasion of New York.

Rick

Britain hates paying for a standing army or navy many were demobbed and went back to their old trade

Some would have been sent to the colonies

many came down to Australia

I remember when i lived at Springwood in the Blue Mountains west of Sydney and there was a plaque near the library commemorating the army post there….it was the gateway to the west of the state. The post was occupied by a lone soldier, i forget his name now but he was a veteran of the Peninsula…..so that where one of the vets went!

I know the 45th were stationed in Ireland in 1815, where they burnt their old colours and recieved a new set. They were dispatched to join the Army in Belgium on the outbrak of hostilities but the 73rd beat them to their transports and went in their place.

Many battalions would have seen themselves disbanded and the men cut loose, others tansferred into the first battalions of their regiments. I imagine the various regiments were dispersed amongst the UK and its empire, to Canada, Gibralter, India and Canada, South Africa ect ect.

For many they would be struck of and left to find work in civve street.

I know the 88th, 43d, 7th, 95th were sent to America/New Orleans.

The 6th ended up in Canada.

the 87th and 24th were dispatched to fight in the ghurka war

the 30th, 34th, 47th, 59th would fight in the Mahratta war.
1817-19

83rd were in Ceylon 1817-1819

38th were fighting in the 5th Kaffir War 1819.

and while by the 1824 Burma war I imagine vets were limited to Sgts, older privates and senior officers the 1st, 38th, 44th, 45th, 47th, 87th and 89th were all fighting here.

My wife's great great grandfather was a trooper with a trade, bootmaker, in the 15th Hussars, and was discharged along with most of the Peninsular veterans, leaving only a cadre, shortly after Bonaparte's first abdication. The regiment returned from France to Britain, did a last parade, at Hounslow I beleive, then was massively reduced in numbers. After the discharges it was only a third of its previous strength. Most of the troopers at waterloo would, therefore, have been new recruits.

Did'nt some enlist as part of Bolivars army in South America?

Some where actually on their way back from America but didn't arrive in time.

Thsnks for the info. Edwulf especially-- that's great. I'd known about the Wars of Liberation in SA, but hadn't realized there were so many other small wars so soon after 1815!

Just to clarify the Waterloo thing: many times I've seen it insisted that a lot of the battalions that saw Belgium had been depot batts during the Spanish war. Even when their regiment was drowning in battle honours, the troops at Q-B and Waterloo were supposedly unblooded. Is there any truth to this?

Is there any truth to this?

nope

From reading Wellingtons rifles, sevral if not all the peninslua vetrenss in 3 battalion of the 95th were at waterloo

I saw one drinking a pina colada at Trader Vic's. His bearskin was perfect.

Right, apologies for any minor errors:

1st Guards – Corunna, Barrossa, Pyrenees,
2nd Guards – Egypt, Talavera, Busaco, Barrossa, Fuentes D'Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
3rd Guards – Fuentes D'Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Badajoz,Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria,

1st Foot – Corunna, Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria,
4th Foot – Corunna, Fuentes D'Onor, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria,
23rd Foot – Egypt, Corunna, Albuera, Ciudad Rodrigo, Badajoz, Salamanca, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
27th Foot – Egypt, Albuera
28th Foot – Egypt, Corunna, Talavera, Busaco, Barrossa, Albuera, Ciudad Rodrigo, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
30th Foot – Fuentes D'Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos,
32nd Foot – Corunna, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
40th Foot – Egypt, South America, Vimeiro, Talavera, Busaco, Ciudad Rodrigo, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
42nd Foot – Egypt, Corunna, Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
44th Foot – Fuentes D'Onor, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos,
51st Foot – Corunna, Fuentes D'Onor, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
52nd Foot – Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
71st Foot – South America, Vimeiro, Corunna, Fuentes D'Onor, Vitoria,
79th Foot – Egypt, Corunna, Busaco, Fuentes D'Onor, Salamanca, Burgos,
92nd Foot – Egypt, Corunna, Talavera, Fuentes D'Onor, Vitoria, Pyrenees,
95th Foot – South America, Vimeiro, Corunna, Talavera, Busaco, Barrossa, Fuentes D'Onor, Ciudad Rodrigo, Badajoz, Salamanca, Burgos, Vitoria, Pyrenees,

sorry it's dinner time and I can't bothered to carry on but you get the gist! Where people get this "Wellington's British troops at Waterloo were green" codswallop is a mystery.

14th – completely inexperienced and very young (and thus kept well out of the action and behaved well)
and Halkett's brigade (33rd, 69th, 73rd) but have written about them too often on here to repeat myself.

Interesting post. However, just because the battalions which were at Waterloo had also been in the Peninsular doesn't mean that the individual soldiers in thoise Battalions had been in the Peninsular. I've already indicated above that the 15th Hussars had a cadre of Officers and NCOs who had been in the Peninsular, but the majority of the troopers were quite new recruits.

Acording to the Waterloo companien the avrage vetran british battlion had quite a few years in the saddle.

The 42nd was used as exampel becasue it was avrage in number of vetrans ect.

The avrage year of service for privates in the 42nd was 6 years, which mean they would have seen the bulk of the peninsular war, the avrage for corporals were 8 years, 12 for sergrants and 8 for drummers.
And acording to the book this was the norm not the expetion

Very illuminating. Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.

If the 42nd was average, then there must have been battalions with significant fewer "veterans", yet which, as a battalion, served in the Peninsular.

If the 42nd was average, then there must have been battalions with significant fewer "veterans", yet which, as a battalion, served in the Peninsular

Or the diffrence might be very small, you never know, avrage can be the middel or two big diffrences or the middel of two small diffrences you don't know.

Of course. However, unless the parameters that give the average aren't given, then merely an "average" isn't really of much value in determining how many were veterans.

go to Kew
look up the documents
see how many soldiers at Waterloo had also fought through the Peninsula

Many famous personalities in the Peninsula, like Harry Smith or Lord Raglan went on to fight in the Sikh Wars and in the Crimea.

Well, Lord Raglan at Crimea- that was something between comic relief and very scary..

14th – completely inexperienced and very young (and thus kept well out of the action and behaved well)

I know the fate of one of these guys from the 3rd battalian of the 14th at least , he transfered to the 1st Battalion when the 3rd was disbanded. He then went to India with the first battalion returning to england in 1831. He then imigrated to Adelaide, South Australia in 1848 where his descendents now live. He was my ancestor William Davis!

Lord Hill. I did, but only those relating to the 15th Hussars. Despite my finding that ALL of the veteran troopers of the Peninsular were dischargeed by late 1814, you, and others, still insist that those units that served in the Peninsular were largely full of veterans at Waterloo. I have proved, at least to my satisfaction, using the contemporary records that the 15th Hussars, at least, was not a "veteran" regiment at Waterloo, despite serving as a regiment in the Peninsular. I you choose to discount my evidence, that's up to you.

Chouan

"my finding that ALL of the veteran troopers of the Peninsular were dischargeed by late 1814"

I don't dispute your findings. but the Regt. didn't cease to exist between late 1814 and June 1815.
How many were left from the earlier period??
And if it was SO green, why take it for the Waterloo campaign??

Cliff

OOOH this should be good ! (rolls up sleeves with glee)

In the name of Picton's trousers Chouan are you
a) just trying to wind me up?
or
b) on drugs?

So you went to Kew and after exhaustive research into all the men of the 15th Hussars found that NONE of them had been in the Peninsula…

Despite my finding that ALL of the veteran troopers of the Peninsular were dischargeed by late 1814, you, and others, still insist that those units that served in the Peninsular were largely full of veterans at Waterloo.

Well, compared to some other Waterloo units, I certainly haven't done much research into the 15th. So let's have a little look shall we…

Well now! it says here "The AVERAGE year of enlistment for men of the 15th Hussars at Waterloo was 1806". But maybe they'd all been sitting around twiddling their thumbs in the years preceding Waterloo…but no! My research says that "the average date of enlistment of Privates was 1812 and nearly all of them had served in the Peninsula". Shall we look at each troop? Why not eh? Lets just look at a few random people (and believe me, these are totally at random)

No.1 Troop – Commanded by Captain Wodehouse (a Peninsula veteran, 2 musket balls through his shako at San Sebastian), Private Adam Brewer was born in Middleheim in the German States. He had enlisted in 1805 and took part in the Coruna campaign, seeing action at Sahugen. He later returned to the Peninsula and was present at Vitoria, Orthes and Toulouse. Private Sam Morgan from Amersham, Bucks, (died of wounds) – enlisted 1804, served in Peninsula 1813-14.

No. 2 Troop – Private William Newbury served 10 years in the 23rd Light Dragoons and then 13 years in the 15th Light Dragoons. He was a veteran of the Coruna campaign and the later Peninsula actions of Pamplona, Vitoria, Orthes and Toulouse. The three Corporals of the Troop had all served for at least 10 years.

No.4 Troop – Commanded by Captain Booth another Peninsula veteran, mentioned in Harry Smith's memoirs. Of the 3 men who died of wounds in this Troop 2 (Bailey, Budd and Drake) only Drake had not served in the Peninsula. Corporal Thomas Land was a veteran of 12 years and had fought in the Peninsula campaign, Vitoria, Orthes, and Toulouse.

No. 5 Troop – Commanded by Captain Thackwell who had served for 15 years including Vittoria, Orthes, Pyranees, particular gallantry at Esla. Private William Nicholls served 17 years with the Regiment at fought in the Coruna campaign at Benevente, and later at Vitoria and Toulouse. His face was scarred with a sabre cut. Private James Wright from Lambourn, Essex had enlisted in 1801 and served at Benevente, Vitoria, Orthes, and Toulouse.

No. 6 Troop – Private Jacob Elliot received slight wounds to his head and hands. From Ilminster, Somerset he had enlisted at Southampton in 1801. He served in the Peninsula and was discharged in 1817 aged 34. He lived to collect his MGS with clasps for Vitoria, Orthes and Toulouse.

No.8 Troop – By the end of the battle command of the Regiment had fallen to Captain Hancox. He had previously served in the Peninsula and been wounded at Vitoria. Private William Bullbrook, enlisted 1800. Served Sahugen, Vitoria, Toulouse. Discharged 1817 as a Corporal. Serjeant William Farr, from Thulton, Leics, was a veteran of the Coruna expedition and had fought at Sahagun. He had later seen action at Vitoria and Toulouse. He was 36 years old at Waterloo.

I don't know if you paid a researcher at the PRO but if so I'd ask for my money back!

Sorry this is overlong but I was enjoying myself.

Lord Hill

Its not many though is it?… 9 men who aren't officers or NCO's.
To be fair to Chouan he said "Troopers" He didn't mention Officers and NCO's (and he got his terminology right; there were no "privates", only troopers or dragoons).

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

"A FEW RANDOM EXAMPLES…" Do you really think, after all I'd written, about average age of enlistment etc that I meant there were only NINE troopers from the Peninsula?!!

You MUST be trying to wind me up…

Sorry. My mistake. I said all when I should have said most. Clearly a cadre was left, including nearly all of the NCOs and Officers, but most of the troopers were, effectively, made redundant. After all, the war was over, Bonaparte was defeated. Wasn't he?
Further details of the Regiment's reduction and the consequent discharges (redundancies) are to be found in "From Corunna to Waterloo: The Letters and Journals of Two Napoleonic Hussars, 1801-1816", Edited by Gareth Glover.

The average age of enlistment was 1806 and 1812 for Troopers – I have all the dates of enlistment of Waterloo men of the 15th Hussars in front of me – a photocopy of the original 1815 document from the PRO.

So the great majority had been in the Peninsula. The stats don't lie!

Dear Beneath The Lead Mountain – thanks for the info on your ancestor! I looked him up on my database and thought my notes would be of interest to you:
"Born Hiddle, Salop. Enlisted 1806. Discharged 1825 aged 36. Internet geneology site quotes an article in an Adelaide newspaper in 1937. "Mr. William Davis, was an Englishman who was 6 ft.4 in all. He joined the 14th Foot and fought with that regiment at Waterloo. A cannonball swept off the toes and front part of his right foot and a bayonet thrust escaped his heart by about an Inch. A portion of his accoutrements is still in the possession of his son. He came out to South Australia in the pioneering days and settled at Aldinga. He was married three times and was the father of 22 children. He died in 1887. The inscription on his tomb in West terrace cemetery gives his age at 92, but it is believed that it should have been 102." This last age does not tally with his discharge age and the rest of the data also seems dubious – he is not listed as wounded on the post-Waterloo muster never mind losing part of his foot etc. It might be that the family historian has confused him with another man with this very common name. His discharge paper makes no mention of any injury to his foot."

At Waterloo he was in No.7 (Wilson's) Company who lost only one man killed in the battle – Private Thomas Gibbards.

Can you shed any light on my muddle?

Chouan 09 Nov 2009 12:55 p.m. PST

Re: Were the troopers of the 15th Hussars laid off after the Peninsular War? The mystery deepens….

''Sorry. My mistake. I said all when I should have said most. Clearly a cadre was left, including nearly all of the NCOs and Officers, but most of the troopers were, effectively, made redundant''

What does a great leader do when he's trapped? I apologise for pointing this out, but doesn't a situation where ''most of the troopers were, effectively, made redundant'' have a name: the 'disbandonment' or 'amalgamation' question? Yet the 15th didn't disband. Moreover, keeping just an officer 'cadre' going is something you do with conscipt armies, not professional ones – the regiment needs men in order to generate government revenue. Otherwise the officers, if needed at all, would leave the regiment and go on half pay.

In the book you quote, both Major Edwin Griffiths and his nephew, Lieutenant Frederick Phillips are reported having served at Corunna, Sahagun, Portugal in 1813, Vittoria, Roncesvalles, Toulouse and…… Waterloo.

Now, surely alarm bells are ringing: why on earth would anyone keep a lieutenant in situ and on full pay (this is the British government who's paying for it) if he has no (or less than half his) troopers? What would be the point?

''After all, the war was over, Bonaparte was defeated. Wasn't he?''

British Empire expanded. War of 1812. India. Did the 15th become the only British 'cadre' then? On the 3rd August they were reviewed by Royals and then, sent on a new service.

To Ireland. Where the 15th had eight troops.

''After the discharges it was only a third of its previous strength. Most of the troopers at waterloo would, therefore, have been new recruits.''

Doesn't follow.

However, Longford's book 'The Years of the Sword' indicates that there were 7,000 Peninsular veterans out of 30,000 British at Waterloo, which indicates only a quarter of the army were veterans, though she gives no sourse.

On the other hand, the same sourse indicates that soldiers were not laid off after the Peninsular War, but rather that the men past their time were not kept on. Wellington complained when Bonaparte seized power, that Horse Guards had not recruited a single man, nor called up the militia.

BUT,

Lord Hill,
''71st Foot – South America, Vimeiro, Corunna, Fuentes D'Onor, Vitoria…….you get the gist! Where people get this "Wellington's British troops at Waterloo were green" codswallop is a mystery''.

Disingenuous!!! Some of the regiments ar Waterloo were represented by their 2nd or 3rd battalions. E.g. the 40th: at Vitoria it's their 1st battalion, at Waterloo: the 2nd battalion. Misleading that man!

Beneath the Lead Mountain
''He was my ancestor William Davis!''

Interesting. Not transported then :-)

British Generals from the Peninsula available in the Waterloo campaign were: Hill, Colville, Clinton, Alton Barnes, Lambert, Byng, Maitland, Halkett, Ponsonby, Somerset, Vivian, Vandeleur, Kempt, Pack and the tragically reluctant Picton.

<<Wellington complained when Bonaparte seized power, that Horse Guards had not recruited a single man, nor called up the militia.>>

Was there not some system for "demobbed" men to return to the colours in such situations (much as reservists would do today)?

Also, I believe that the 1st Foot Guards were brought up to full strength by drafts from the Militia whilst en route to Belgium (not sure if this involved the usuall "bring XX men with you and you get a full commission" deal for Militia officers). Quite possibly other regiments did the same?

.

<<Some of the regiments ar Waterloo were represented by their 2nd or 3rd battalions. E.g. the 40th: at Vitoria it's their 1st battalion, at Waterloo: the 2nd battalion.>>

Well done, Wilson. I was wondering who'd be first to spot that.

"What does a great leader do when he's trapped? I apologise for pointing this out, but doesn't a situation where ''most of the troopers were, effectively, made redundant'' have a name: the 'disbandonment' or 'amalgamation' question? Yet the 15th didn't disband."
No, they replaced most of the, I suppose, worn out troopers, and kept the most fit troopers, the NCOs and Officers. They replaced the redundant troopers, eventually, with new recruits.

"In the book you quote, both Major Edwin Griffiths and his nephew, Lieutenant Frederick Phillips are reported having served at Corunna, Sahagun, Portugal in 1813, Vittoria, Roncesvalles, Toulouse and…… Waterloo."
Yes. They are, I assume, Officers.

"Now, surely alarm bells are ringing: why on earth would anyone keep a lieutenant in situ and on full pay (this is the British government who's paying for it) if he has no (or less than half his) troopers? What would be the point?"
As I indicated above, the troopers were replaced.

"''After all, the war was over, Bonaparte was defeated. Wasn't he?''
British Empire expanded. War of 1812. India. Did the 15th become the only British 'cadre' then? On the 3rd August they were reviewed by Royals and then, sent on a new service. To Ireland. Where the 15th had eight troops."
The redundancies took place in late 1814, as I indicated above.

"''After the discharges it was only a third of its previous strength. Most of the troopers at waterloo would, therefore, have been new recruits.''
Doesn't follow."
Why not? If the troopers had been replaced by new recruits, as I indicated above?

OK, thank you for that, Chouan. If you mean there were instant replacements, then the word 'cadre' becomes redundant. The only thing was that confusion about the number of replacements and reference to a new book was a little difficult to understand when you did your reseach by looking at original records at Kew. In any case, out of interest, what are the actual figures for veteran vs replacements in the 15th you reckon? Or was it just the impression you gained?

Thanks

In previous conflicts, regiments going abroad would try to attain full strength by pulling in "volunteers" (and, if that failed, drafts) from regiments remaining at home.

Any evidence that this happened for the Waterloo campaign?

Impression gained, in that I didn't record anything, as I was looking at my wife's great great grandfather's records. It seemed that he, along with most other veteran troopers were discharged at the depot, which seemed to be Hounslow, in late 1814. They seemed to be replaced with new recruits. Perhaps the veterans were too expensive, and new recruits were cheaper? Perhaps they'd picked up bad "campaign habits" which weren't suited to peacetime soldiering?

did you read my post?

no comment?

Absolutely extraordinary! What a complete waste of my time.

Yes, and perhaps yes.
You seem firmly convinced that the troops involved were veterans, with no exceptions. I, on the other hand, believe that some were, but many weren't. You won't convince me that they were all veterans, I won't convince you that they weren't.
Consequently I saw no purpose in prolonging the argument, which had become pointless.
A final point; I've never found historical research to be a waste of time…..

Well, you went from telling me I was wrong with the assertion that

Despite my finding that ALL of the veteran troopers of the Peninsular were dischargeed by late 1814

to

Sorry. My mistake. I said all when I should have said most.

to

Impression gained, in that I didn't record anything, as I was looking at my wife's great great grandfather's records. It seemed that he, along with most other veteran troopers were discharged at the depot, which seemed to be Hounslow, in late 1814.

Faced with ALL the data to the contrary – that is ALL the enlistment dates of the men at Waterloo – I was expecting you might go one step further!

Anyway, it keeps me off the streets. :)

Lord Hill,
No comment on my comment about your post?
:-)

ok! I'll take the bait!

the men of the 40th Foot were among the most battle-hardened and experienced (of any nation) present at Waterloo. The majority of the rank and file had fought in AT LEAST 5 or 6 important battles over the years prior to 1815 with many having fought in 14!

So I'm not sure what point you were making.

Thanks,
I meant perhaps you didn't realise that you were detailing the previous service of 'regiments' at Waterloo, not realising you were actually referring to different 'battalions'?

I see. It doesn't alter anything though does it?

You must have missed my line "apologies for any minor errors"

I read this one some time back but never got around to posting on it. I just wanted to add that many vets went to South America fight their independence wars down there.