"The tribes of Northern Spain" Topic

The campaigns in Spain were long, nasty and generally a real problem for the Roman republic as it grew into an empire.

Most of the sources I've seen focus on the period of the Punic Wars on through the battles against Viriathus and the war against Numantia (ending 133 BCE). These struggles finished the power of the Celtiberians and the Lusitanii.

But the Romans were fighting in Spain until Augustus' time; after the Sertorius revolt and the civil wars, there are a series of campaigns against the tribes of the north-west, in what would later be known as Galicia, Asturias and Cantabria.

Does anyone know much about these people and these campaigns. Any good sources in English?

What I know (or think I know!) so far is that these isolated tribes lacked the Iberian influence of the Celtiberian peoples to their south and east. They built stone hillforts and archaeologists refer to their cuture as the 'Castro culture'. They probably spoke an earlier Celtic(or 'proto-Celtic')language than the Celtiberians, who were descended from later arrivals from across the Pyrenees.

From a wargames viewpoint, are they more or less an old-fashioned Celtic army with lots of light infantry who can run about the mountains?

Obviously proto-Communist anti-Colonialists! Power to me for the piple!

Well I have about three whole books that touch on this so . . .

Typically the Gauls/Celts would tend to settle in the lowlands and push out the indigenous folks. The displaced folks would then have to migrate or in some cases wound up in the surrounding hills and mountains.

It appears to me that at least some of the Gauls/Celts were displaced by the Romans. It also appears to me that many of the Roman objectives were located on rivers and in river valleys. So . . . I'll betcha at least some of the folks that gave the Romans all those fits were Gauls/Celts.

mjc

Howard,
Just keeping creating special sprues to go with the generic Light Infantry bodies, and we'll all be happy.

Galicia, can be translated as "the land of the Gauls".
The language spoken there Gallego, can be transleted as "the language of the Gauls" or "Gaellic".
So I guess, for a wargame, a lightly armed early gaul(celtic) army would be OK.

"Any good sources in English?"

Short answer: no. Between what you already know, plus mjc's and mex10mm's comments, that pretty much sums up everything I've ever seen published. Unlike the Lusitani, there's isn't even an obscure "Slingshot" article to fall back on.

This sounds like it would make a marvelous holiday research project, with some sound preparation.

In wargame terms, a Gallic army would be OK. I think you can get a more "mountaineer" depiction using some of the elements from my WAB list from "Hannibal", but you'd obviously be adapting it. I wrote the list to provide flexibility to cover the post-Punic Wars campaigns.

Figure-wise: heck, nobody can really agree on the appearance of the late-comer Celtiberians, and you're really going to have to dig to find earlier period representations of warriors from that area. Again, that's a good mission for a holiday, with coordinated visits to see as many museum curators as possible. That's when you're not crawling between vineyards and bodegas, and stuffing yourself on seafood,

Allen

Hello Howard and the other TMP members

Well, I'm living smack in the middle of the old Asturia Cismontana (now known as León-whose name in turn derives from the base camp of the Legio VI Victrix and Legio VII Gemina) Our Asturian cousins are on the other side of the Picos de Europa mountain range in Asturia Transmontana (Asturias).This is the reason Asturias takes the plural whereas Cantabria and Galicia are named in the singular.

Concerning the Asturian-Cantabrian Wars, the book to have is by Adolf Schulten "The Cantabrians and Asturians and their war with Rome". I have a Spanish version printed by the Cantabrian Autonomous Government.

You will also find information by classical historians such us Pliny, Strabo, and the great Dion Cassius.

As for "From a wargames viewpoint, are they more or less an old-fashioned Celtic army with lots of light infantry who can run about the mountains?"…

Definitely not…the old fashioned Celts lived in France and Britain and had their homes conquered in a very short space of time indeed ;-)

Hannibal seemed to rate Celtiberian infantry and cavalry pretty well, but then again, what would that old Carthaginian know, eh?

The article by Sir Ronald Syme, "The Conquest of North-West Spain" in the book "Legio VII Gemina", León, 1970. is truly excellent.

My respected Eutimio Martino has trampled up and down every Roman route, trekked through Leonese Mountains, Cantabrian Hills, and Asturian valleys, and waded in every possible river in his search for evidence of the Asturian-Cantabrian wars. He has a great series of books.

Wiki has a decent article – link

Quebecnordiques:

You have to cut the Gauls a little slack! They fought the Romans for roughly 500 years. I wouldn't call that a quick victory by any stretch of the imagination.

One can argue the Belgae gave Caesar more trouble than Pompey. And . . . those old Celts in Scotland could never be conquered.

There are some who feel that the evolution of large settlements were the undoing of the Gauls/Celts as these were objectives the Romans could take and dominate. A bunch of wild tribesmen living in small villages with limited attachments to the land (like Scotland or Northern Spain) proved to be very difficult problems for the Romans -- and . . . not economically worth going after (always a consideration where Roman military actions were concerned).

mjc

Hello Quidveritas,

Yes, admittingly there is a bit of tongue-in-cheek in my comments, but there was no way the Gauls defended their homeland for 500 years!

Though it is true that Cisalpine Celts (from Northern Italy) had raided, invaded and generally given the Romans a load of grief for many years during the Republican Era, the Gallic Celts defending their homeland were overcome by Caesar in less than ten years.

And, er no…the Belgae did definitely not give Caesar half the headaches Pompeii did…Pompeii made Caesar work hard for his victory both on the battlefields spread out along all the Mediterranean as in the political circles of Rome.

The UNESCO world heritage site of the Roman gold mines at Las Médulas link proves the region was definitely worth going after..in fact, and this is a little known fact, it practically paid for all costs of the invasion of Britannia.

Thank you Quebecnordiques for your link to Las Medulas. Great stuff!

As for 500 years of Gauls -- I stated: They fought the Romans for roughly 500 years. I didn't say anything about defending their homeland (what ever that was). The Gauls/Celts were never a 'nation' in the sense that Rome was a nation. They were a bunch of tribes sharing a common language and perhaps a common culture and (no one knows) perhaps a common religion. But you probably already know this.

Julius Caesar did not just wake up one morning and say, "gee, I think I will conquer Gaul". You seem to want to focus on the final campaigns against these folks. I'm just pointing out the conflict was hardly confined to 10 years.

390 BC Brennus defeated the Romans around Rome

298 The Etruscans and the Celts formed an alliance against the Romans, to be joined by the Sammites in a victory at Camerium (Cameria) NE of Rome where an entire legion was destroyed.

284 – The Celts were victorious at Arretium (Arezzo) killing the Roman commander Lucius Caecilius.

Gaulic mercenaries served in almost every army in the Mediterranean region to include Egypt.

And the Romans were not exactly idle. They campaigned against the Celts/Gauls almost continuously until they were finally destroyed. Yes depending on how you want to look at things, it took nearly 400 years to accomplish this.

I have followed some of Quebecnordique's suggestions and – although I cannot yet locate the book he suggests – I have found my way into online translations of Cassius Dio, Pliny, Strabo and Plutarch.

All of whom are Roman or Greek, and only Strabo is contempory to the events

Cassis Dio has a chapter, but it's on the slim side. I've been told to look at Pliny the Elder, but all I have found is his Natural History, which discusses Spain in a cursory manner. Strabo discusses the Lusitanians and runs them together with what he terms the mountain people of the north.

There are some Wikipedia entries on the Cantabrian Wars that seem sensible and knowledgable, while some others are full of the reasons people point to Wikipedia and guffaw. I can't verify the parts that look good, of course. Maybe they are idiotic but well written :)

Schulten's "Die Keltiberer und ihre Kriege mit Rom" is going to be hard to find outside a libray, I suspect.

Allen

Aecurtis, there is an obscure "Slingshot" article to fall back in: "Augustus' War in Spain" in the September 1986 No.127 issue, written by yours truly.

The article is mainly based on a Spanish translation of Adolf Schulten's book on the Cantabrian Wars ("Los Cántabros y Astures y su guerra con Roma", Espasa Calpe, Madrid, 1962). Incidentally, this is a different book than "Die Keltiberer und ihre Kriege mit Rom", which focuses in the Celtiberian Wars.

Schulten's geographical interpretation of the war is now discredited, but the book is still a mine of information on the subject

Antonio

hehehehe..Ive just seen an awful mistake in my first posting…"the great Dion Cassius". My word! My subconscience playing up on me…a long time ago and after a few "cervezas" a group of archaelogists did a peculiar show starring "the great Dion Cassius". British readers think along the lines of the TV series "It ain't half hot Mum!"

I did mean Cassius Dio…..honestly.

Hiya Quidveritas! You are right…your statement did mention that the Celts FOUGHT the Romans for over 500 years, on the other hand, my previous posting talked about their capacity to DEFEND the homeland something which they were not very capable of as well as the Spanish Celts-and this probably has more to do with geography than tactics!

You're very welcome to the Las Médulas link..in fact if you ever decide to visit and I can bunk off class, I'll show you around the place!

I'm curious that no-one has actually researched and commented on the amazing amount of gold mined at León and its influence in the financing of the British Invasion.

Quebecnordiques,

Thank you for the invite.

Got a kid in grad school right now and even though she has a fellowship for the next 6 months, things could change . . . so I have to save my dimes and nickles.

My wife would love the place -- a gold mine! and yet another old house visit -- this time in spades. She might not ever leave. (She has an unhealthy fascination with Montana Gold mines and their history -- old west stuff -- I get stuck going to at least one new mining site every year -- most are a total shambles).

mjc

I've been living in Northern Spain for 20-odd years and only this year did I get the chance to see the gold mines at Las Médulas. I was very impressed indeed…and believe you me, I've seen my fair share of Roman remains.

Though I have to say that the highlight for me is still Numantia, and to top it all up, I also got served a beer there, well two beers, by a member of the Spanish Royal Family. Nice guy, have to admit.

If only my dear old Republican grandfather had been alive to witness that…

Hey Quebecnordiques -

If I write something up based on my reading so far, will you look over it?

I fear that I can come up with something that an Anglophone reader will accept but a Spanish historian will laugh at. And that's not good :(

Hello Howard, I would be honoured to do so….send me contact details via the personal messages option, and I'll get in touch immediately!

Quebecnordiques -- I don't think I can PM you, but why don't you email me at professorbellbuckle@yahoo.com and we can discuss it. Thanks!

'Castro culture'

They wore big beards & smoked herbs in little rolls of parchment? Hard to kill?

Might be worth contacting Alan Warren at A Warren of Books now he's relocated to Spain. Can't recall whicvh part he's in but he's into Spanish military history projects