"Would I like Renaissance Gaming?" Topic

I know very little about Renaissance warfare. I have played and enjoyed ECW, but am looking for something with a bit more variety.

I like the look of Polish winged hussars, Ottoman Turks, Eastern Europeans and Ren military in general.

I enjoy gaming periods of transition, either between tactical schools, weapons technologies, or cultures.

I am a very fond of Ancients, especially Biblicals and chariot wars, and at the other end of teh time scale "Arthurian Britain".

I have read and enjoyed Captain Alatriste and sequels.

So what is Renaissance wargaming all about, and where can I find out more?

Maybe

Sorry, I was inspired by Captain Apathy!

Given all of the above – I think you would like it quite a bit with the major caveat being – "Who are you playing with?"

But, then again, that's the major caveat of ALL wargaming…at least until we come up with Artificial Intelligence versions of ourselves to play against in which case we will all desperately despise our opponent.

Almost fell off my chair at that response.

I had to give up solo playing, my opponent cheats too much.

Since you like Poland and Eastern Europe, why don't you check out the Pan Mark Yahoo group?

link

You would definitely like it. It sounds like you enjoy periods of ancients that focus on cavalry (or chariots) more than big blocks of infantry and there is tons and tons of cavalry in eastern ren. warfare.

And they are prettier than any other cavalry out there, including any of those crass later hussars from the nappy period.

Although maybe you wouldn't like it, you would LOVE it!

From the way I understand it, in Europe you're generally dealing with large blocks of pike surrounded by muskets (or arquebuses earlier in the period) who lumber around the battlefield essentially like mobile fortress towers, seeking to hem in the cavalry or push the other guy out of place.

Later, commanders split these large brigades up into smaller squadrons as increased firepower made infantry maneuver important. See the 3-squadron "Swedish Brigade" formations of Gustavus Adolphus for an example, though even the Swedes fell back to the "Dutch" 1000-man brigade in the end. (By way of analogy, the "Polybian" Roman army later abandoned its complex structure for the more flexible Cohort system.)

The cavalry (who seem to do most of the maneuvering and fighting) uses pistols as sort of a long-range lance while charging home, and later in the period adopts a "ride up, shoot, fall back and reload" tactic called the "caracole". Some horsemen still wore heavy armor, and different nations had different modes of attack.

Artillery was used as well, but the oxen teams used to place the guns was often just hired local farmers, and they pretty much stayed where they were put.

Some nations had more aggressive tactics than others, and I suspect the Hungarians (for example) probably didn't construct a battle with quite the same mathematical precision as the Germans did.

If you study the better maps of the battle of Lutzen, you can see the two schools of though in the mid-TYW facing off against each other. On the one side, you have a double-line of four Swedish Brigades (1500 men per brigade, separated into 3 pike+shot squadrons) and artillery with cavalry on the wings representing the "Early Modern" method of war you might know from the ECW.

Across the field, you can see the German brigades of Wallenstein (each 1000 men, with a pike core and shot sleeves), arrayed in a deep checkerboard with cavalry interspersed between the brigades, ready to reinforce or exploit as needed. Along the front, you can see detached musketeers lined up in a firing line, and to the flanks, the wilder horsemen were stationed, ready to swoop around the enemy flanks.

I have not yet found a game that I like for this period, though a lot of the local guys love the currently-in-playtest FOG suppliment. But maybe that's because my view of this period doesn't match reality. I suppose that's possible, and I'm sure someone here will correct me if I'm way off base. :)

It's a period I enjoy.. as you mentioned, is is a very transitional period.. going from the supremacy of the
charging knight to the supremacy of firepower..

You'll find the infantry becomes more and more important
as tactics and weapons develop.. tho the armored
man-at-arms cavalry is still important thruout.
Artillery is increasingly used on the field, but not all
that effective. And it's manned by civilian contractors..:-)

Also, there is amle opportunity for various battles..
France in Italy, Thirty Years War, English Civil War,
French Religious/Civil Wars.. plus the Turks.. Swedes in Russia.. lot going on in the period as Kings start to organize 'modern' states.. It's also a very colorful area.. no uniforms per se..:-)

I know little of the Eastern areas.. but my impression from wht little reading I've done is that the West was more advanced.. so the Turks still face Polish medievel
troops..(a slaughter them..) rather than disciplined Westerners..

Scale is an important consideration.. I recommend
10mm – 15mm. For rules, depends on how complex you want it.. Armati comes to mind.. but I play Piquet using the
Band of Brothers supplement.. check the site below for a good explanatiopn of it..

gonsalvo.com

Rules can be a major hang-up. There was a lot of experimentation and regional battlefield strengths and styles. Finding rules that effectively and somewhat accurately portray the variety can be problematic. I would suggest researching a particular era or set of battles and then look at rule systems that might reflect that period before jumping in with figs and scale.

It's got everything!

Stand up proper stuff, hand to hand or shooting are quite equal in importance. Cavalry can be good, but won't beat ok foot with out being clever. Infantry sometimes are good, sometimes not so great. Artillery can be intreasting but not over whelming. Battles a decent size but not huge.Competing weapons systems but niether too out classed.

Religious bigotry is an optional extra.

Troops can be used over quite a wide geographic area and dates. Lots of colour but not too many uniforms.

16th century is the best in my book.

Dave I've got one word for you: ITALIAN WARS. Well I was close. This period has everything. Landsknechts, Swiss, Spanish, French etc. You've got pikemen, crossbow men, arquebusiers, rodeleros (sword and buckler), halberdiers, two-handed swords, spears and shields. You've got heavy armored knights on metal barded horses, heavy armored knights on non-barded horses, mounted crossbowmen, mounted arquebusiers, genetors, stradiots. How about big guns and little organ guns. Everything is a riot of color. And, no uniforms so no one can tell you you got it wrong. And the armies are small so you don't have to take out a second mortgage. In addition, this period begs for 28mm.

Rich

@Dave: Further to what RK posted, you could use conversions of the older plastic GW "Empire" troops for many of the units.

Thanks for the reference to my site, TS. I love this era, particualarly the 15th and 16th Centuries; the Eastern Renaissance stuff is great too; it was a game at the late Charlie Sweet's home way back in 1974 that got my (then) new wargames buddy Joe Fish and I interested in the era – pikes, shot, pistoliers, croats, gendarmes… and of course those spectacular Winged Hussars! I also enjoy the earlier parts of the transitional era – including the Swiss, HYW, and the Hussites.

Peter Anderson

Consider joining the RENWARS Yahoo group and the Renaissance Wargames Society. And of course, I also agree with 28mm scale… but to each their own there!

One thing you will find in this era is that there is realtively limited information avaialable, unlike, say, the Napoleonic Era or ACW, etc.

Hi Dave

I must admit I was not convinced I'd like the period but now I have some rather large (and fairly generic) Italian Wars armies in 6mm. We use a somewhat modified version of Maximillian (sort of DBA clone but with extras) and have been enjoying games now for 6 months or so.

Rich is right – it has everything from pike steamrollers to pestering light cavalry and offers a lot of tactical possibilities.

6mm isn't well served (I use mostly H&R but Irregular do some good stuff for the period) but 10mm isn't too bad if you use you imagination a bit. 15 & 25/8 are more extensive but you'd need a big table and lots of painting time.

and if that ain't enough.. try this..:-)

link

@Dave: Further to what RK posted, you could use conversions of the older plastic GW "Empire" troops for many of the units.

WHAT? Oh the ignobility of it, the shame. Have we sunk to this level? Plastic fantasy figures – it makes the stomach ralph. Let those other period go to plastics. Let the Italian Wars remain pure, for the love of god!

On the other hand, they do look good. Be careful, GW figures tend to be a bit larger than the metal ones. Also, check the prices between GW and Old Glory. GW plastic is not necessarily cheaper.

Rich

LOL! Some were used by the League of Augsburg for their Italian Wars units, although I cannot find the gallery that presented some 6 to 8 images of the LoA's units on the gaming table…

Aha!
link

See also:
link

Darn tooting you will! Enjoy.

"but my impression from wht little reading I've done is that the West was more advanced.. so the Turks still face Polish medievel troops..(a slaughter them..) rather than disciplined Westerners"

My advice is to read more…a common but wrong perception. Beyond the reality that Polish cavalry, particularly the winged hussars and pancerni and properly led, were some of the best cavalry of the period anywhere in Europe or Asia, the Polish infantry was trained in western tactics. As far as the disciplined Westerners go the Swedes had very little success throughout the 17th century and learned a thing or two about cavalry tactics in the process.

I think you'd particularly like Eastern Renaissance simply because it does provide much more variety between the Poles, Swedes, Russians, Turks, Tatars, Transylvanians, Austrians…the list goes on.

db