"Stuarts & Armoured Cars in Burma - Late War" Topic

Part 2 of my 'Stuarts in Burma' query:

There were two Indian regiments operating Stuarts in Burma during the latter part of the war – 7th Light Cavalry and 45th Light Cavalry. In both instances they filled the slot of 4th armoured regiment in the brigade they were attached to.

So how to mark them…? Does anyone have any photos of Indian Stuarts circa 1944-45 in which the markings are visible? Any hint of an AoS number?

I do know that the three 'Medium' armoured regiments in each brigade followed the NW Europe convention of markings – '51', '52' & '53' serials (albeit on red-over-yellow AoS signs, which was somewhat unusual) with squadron signs broadly following the European colour-coding of red, yellow and blue (although in some cases the sign was white, but filled with the appropriate colour).

The '54' serial would normally be held by the brigade's Motor Battalion (in this case various battalions of the Bombay Grenadiers) and would have green squadron signs, but in this case, I'm tempted to use the '54' serial and green signs for my Stuarts and instead use '55' on my Motor Battalion trucks.

Does anyone have any intel on this?

The other alternative might be to use the 45 serial on a green-over-blue square (which would normally be allocated to an Armoured Recce Regt in NW Europe).

In the case of armoured cars, again I've not got any photos where the AoS markings are visible. I'm going to opt for the European convention for a corps armoured car regiment – '44' serial on a green-over-blue square, with white overstripe and white squadron markings unless someone can give me the pukka gen.

Can anyone help?

As I have no doubt you've already seen, in Perrett, the 7th Light Cavalry Stuart markings are most definitely not visible: all of them are gloriously festooned with impedimenta. (Which certainly offers a modelling alternative!)

The sole photo of 11th (PAVO) Light Cavalry Daimlers shows squadron signs clearly, but not the AoS markings. The first car in the column appears to have had its AoS censored; the subsequent ones look suitably dark (as in green over blue) with just a hint of a number.

Sorry, old man. This (as with your first query) is a subject of interest, but I think it's safe to say that a wargamer could omit markings in Burma almost completely, and no-one could call foul.

Allen

But where would be the fun in that?! ;o)

As you say, Stuarts in 1945 look like Gypsy caravans! It's often not even possible to see the turrets, let along the markings… But things will be different in THIS man's 14th Army! :o)

I've seen a sequence of very nice side-views of some PAVO Daimler (with Indian soldiers riding it), which clearly shows neatly-applied WD number, squadron signs (with troop number in the middle) and vehicle names, but frustratingly no front or rear views.

Interestingly, from research done on the subject by Dennis Oliver and others, it seems that 14th Army AFVs were even more liberally festooned with markings than their European brethren, but rapidly became covered in jungle crud…

"But things will be different in THIS man's 14th Army!"

Oh gawd, they've sent out a spit-and-polish martinet! ;^)

Yep, the B Sqn, PAVO Daimler column in Perrett clearly shows the troop "2" in the square. Pity one can't make out the other markings.

Allen

True – there wasn't the same "aiming mark" paranoia that units in Europe often had, so markings could be big and bold on occasion, hence the ridiculously oversized white stars on some vehicles….

Very true – I was thinking about getting some 1/76th stars for my 15mm Burma kit… ;o)

I saw one Carrier that had obviusly had been painted using a star stencil that WAY too big – all you had was the middle of the star and just two of the five points – the other three points had been 'cropped' by the small size of the Carrier! :o)

I did once see an Indian Stuart photo that had a similarly-gigantic star on the turret – I wish I knew where that photo was now!

I did find an interesting photo of a Lee recently, showing the (HUGE) star on the left-hand side of the tank actually painted on the front-left corner of the hull, so that it was partially visible from the front… very odd.

It's not odd. The friendlies were far more likely to have an effective anti-tank weapon on hand than the Japanese were. Therefore, you were safest if you made sure your friends knew not to shoot at you!

Ah ha!

The obvious solution is to put on blatantly incorrect markings. This will be an irresistible trap, drawing in any wargamer who actually does know, for the inevitable "do you realise those markings are wrong?". At which point you whip out pen and pad, to note down what the correct ones are and where he got his reference!

Simple really!

And of course if you can get through a convention and a couple of wargames without anyone leaping into your trap, then you know that nobody knows and therefore applying your incorrect ones could be just as good as any others.

Wargamers…..so predictable!

Mal
But then others will copy you, and eventually pictures of all these models with wrong markings will be all over the web. And because "all these people can't be wrong", they will become accepted as the correct markings.You will change history.
Egg

mal & freerangeegg….. so true -lol-

Ivan – absolutely true. The chief threat in Burma was from Allied air power, hence the HUGE stars – even on the sides. However, the circled star, common in Europe, was not common in Burma.

You think I haven't already been doing that…?

;o)

I have an old version of Bryan Perrett's Osprey Vanguard on the Stuart, and he has a color plate on the 7th Light Cavalry. The AoS number is a white "37" on a yellow over red sign. This is placed on the right side of the hull (from the driver's perspective), and the XIVth Army sign is on the left. Perrett says these markings were repeated on the rear of the vehicle. He also says that the 7th Light Cavalry was the second senior regiment of the 254th Indian Tank Brigade at the time of Imphal. In the painting, wire covers the front of the tank, presumably to help protect against Japanese pole charges.

The squadron signs look like the ones used in Europe. The one in the illustration is a yellow "3" enclosed in a triangle. Tank names are painted in white capital letters around the mantlet. The one illustrated, belonging to Capt. Harry Travis, is named THE HAMMER OF THOR. Other names known to have been used in the regiment were OM (a Hindu prayer), SHER (Tiger), and CAWNPORE.

Mark

Curioser and curioser…

37 doesn't fit with any known serial (the Indian Tank Brigades used 50 upwards, like brigades in Europe).

The yellow squadron signs are also baffling, as they suggest the second-senior regiment in the brigade. However, this doesn't work as Indian cavalry regiments were junior to British regiments and 254th Tank Brigade already contained 3rd Carabiniers, 149th RAC and 150th RAC.

Thirdly, why use the XIVth Army sign and not that of 254th Tank Brigade?

I'm wondering if he saw these markings in black and white and guessed at the colours (they yellow-over-red AoS sign is also at odds with the known Indian Tank Brigade colours of red-over-yellow). Maybe the squadron sign should actually be white for an unbrigaded regiment (which would explain the XIVth Army sign) and maybe 37 is the serial for an independent Armoured Recce Regiment?

Oh well, it is an old Osprey. There might be some speculation because Perrett cannot see through the wire clearly. Your reasoned effort is probably more trustworthy. I thought I would just report what I saw. You guys are the experts on markings on armoured cars in Burma. I'm going back to my multi-volume work on Mascots of the Royal Welsh Fusiliers. :-)

Mark

Cheers Mark…

What's it going to be called? 'Goat-Bothering Through The Ages'…?

;o)

Thanks for the help guys!

The sum-total of my research on the subject can be found here:

PDF link

There is still plenty of wild conjecture in there (and I forgot to put Mark's 7th Cavalry info in, as well as an acknowledgements page), so it's very much a work-in-progress. Please let me know if there's anything that needs changing.

Mark

Thanks for that great link Mark, duly put into my favourites for future use. There is not a lot of information about these units about.