"To Da'Death!" Topic

Hi

So, over breakfast I am reading the Recent MI article about the gallowglass irish troops. And their vow to never retreat, surrender or turn their backs.

And I realized once again, that we have so many examples of these "to the death" guys, but seem a little short of examples where people actually fought to the death.

is this "pre-hollywood" hyperbole, wishful thinking or WHAT?

Rocky

Nobody else who swears "to the last man" is ever around to notice when the actual last man looks around, assesses the situation, and starts heeling-and-toeing it for the exit.

Allen

Didn't the Theban Sacred Band fight to the death against the Macedonians?

No! to the PAIN.

I think Josephus is a good example of a group that swore to die together.

Also, several islamic terror attacks recently where the whole group swore to fight until killed have only had 90%+ casualties …

Nobody else who swears "to the last man" is ever around to notice when the actual last man looks around, assesses the situation, and starts heeling-and-toeing it for the exit.

Allen

Hey, someone has to survive to write the AAR and the Regimental History.. otherwise, it never happened, right?

I think Josephus is a good example of a group that swore to die together.

Josephus is the ideal role model for anyone planning their post "last stand" careers.

Kirke's Lambs – though they may not have actually sworn an oath, and might just have been ornery.

Suicide doesn't count! Yer supposed to FIGHT!

I don't know of any examples where this happened to the death (i.e. 100% casualties), but there are plenty of examples of "to the pain" alright.

Come to think of it, several crusader battles were pretty much "to the death", with only wounded on the ground being taken prisoners after the battle. And sometimes it just happens that your side gets shot down and can't run or die; example, Pelagonia link seems to have been one where the knights were forced to surrender because they were all lying stunned and wounded in their armor and couldn't lift a finger….

How about the Spartans at Thermopylae.They stood their ground with some greek allies against overwelming odds, knowing they probably would not see it through to the end.

"Josephus is the ideal role model for anyone planning their post "last stand" careers."

Josephus was feeling the need for a career change, and had a golden parachute in the Flavians.

"How about the Spartans at Thermopylae.They stood their ground with some greek allies against overwelming odds, knowing they probably would not see it through to the end."

Yes, but they sent the non-Spartan Lakedemonians, Mantineans, Tegeans, Arcadians, Corinthians, Phlians, and Melians home.

There were survivors of both Masada and Camerone.

Allen

Do the San Patricios of Mex-Am War fit in here? Yes, there were survivors there, too.

Custer's Last Stand?

Of course, some accounts claim the cavalry did indeed break while trying to retreat and were cut down. I know at least one archeological dig is supposed to support this version. But they all died.

I am reminded of the mounted militia that met Black Hawk's Indians at the start of the Black Hawk War. 300 of them broke and ran for miles from some 50 warriors. All night long riders turned up at the army camp, each claiming to be the sole survivor. Actual losses were some 15 or 30.

Battle of St. Jakob an der Birs, 1444
link
springs to mind as a "To the last man" fight

But then they didn't vow never to flee.

And for the city of Berne the results were mixed. Yes the French went home, but the city lost a good part of their menfolk which, from what I've read, made times harder for the citizens of Berne. (less labour and greater vulnerability to attack/robbers)

Didn't Harolds huscarls fight to the death after he was killed.
I think this and other examples in history has less to do with stirring manly prowess and bluster and more to do with the consequences,usually grisly and painful, of being captured alive by the enemy.

Remember also the unamed warrior on the bridge who fends of the home army to allow Hardraada a bit of time to form up.

Wasnt there some French foreign legion unit with fought to (nearly) the last man against morrocan tribes ?

If one can beleive the poem, Beorthnoth's huscarls fought to the death at the Battle of Maldon.

I just finished painting an Anglo Danish army for FoG and plan to recite selected passages in Old ENglish whenever I need to rally my Huscarls' morale; "Hige sceal be hoerdra, hearda be cenra, mod sceal be meardra, be ure moegen liteth.." I won't go bail for the spelling…

Byrhtnoth's warriors were thegns, not huskarls (too early for huskarls anywhere in England, actually); but the point still stands, they died where they stood. Same for King Harold's huskarls at Hastings; the rest of the English army broke for the trees (even the Bayeux Tapestry shows the huskarls fighting to the last, and the fyrd running off into the woods)….

1066.us

Hi

So, what would you guess, one group in 10,000 that takes the vow does so?

Grin.

I remember with shock the first gang fight I was in as a kid how these scary big pachucos would take a hit, bleed a little and just sit down holding themselves and feeling sorry for themselves!

To the death is more asserted than the rule.

R

Is this one where you say "Close but no cigar" or could there be a reason for the missing two. Other than running of couse ;)

"The force has varied greatly in size over the years and has even been disbanded. Its first, and most significant, hostile engagement was on May 6, 1527 when 147 of the 189 Guards, including their commander, died fighting the unruly troops of Holy Roman Emperor Charles V during the Sack of Rome in order to allow Clement VII to escape through the Passetto di Borgo, escorted by the other 40 guards. The last stand battlefield is located on the left side of St Peter's Basilica, close to the Campo Santo Teutonico (German Graveyard)."

Masada had no adult male survivors
Indeed the Jewish revels don't seem to have had any vow to fight to the death. it was just bloody sensible unless you like being crucified in the afternoons. Never understood why any rebels surrendered to the Romans eg Spartacus' army