"Dealing with NAVWAR" Topic

Does anyone else find it a bit strange dealing with a supplier of several ranges of figures that doesn't have e-mail or a way to sell via the web and whose retail hours are almost non-existent?

The only way to order is via regular mail, the phone during extremely short business hours, or via fax which is very often unresponsive or busy.

Anyone know of another way to contact them?

Thanks in advance for your help! Will

I have heard from those who have visited the shop that he is a bit eccentric in how he deals with people in person as well.

I have had no problems with any orders I have sent off to him; always delivered promptly, properly packaged, and as ordered.

I suggest you write a letter.

"The only way to order is via regular mail, the phone during extremely short business hours, or via fax which is very often unresponsive or busy.

Anyone know of another way to contact them?"

It was never a problem in the "good old days" before the Internet. Why is it a problem now?

As Lentulus says, he is fine dealing with orders by snail mail. (Except when there's a UK postal strike!).

I have never had a problem, products came packaged very well and the turn around time was not that much longer than going through a web portal.

Just because someone chooses not to do it the "current" way doesn't mean it is wrong.

Navwar's service is as good as most web-based suppliers, better than some.

Why should everyone have to be the same ? Some folks prefer the older ways, if you can't cope with that they order from someone else – its your loss as well as theirs, many of Navwar's ranges can't be had any other way.

I've ordered from Navwar by post on a number of occasions and have always been pleased with the service I've received. However, a significant amount of my model purchases are impulse buys. The extra hassle of filling in their order form, printing it off and then posting it means that navwar doesn't get half as many orders from me as they would with a more convenient (for me) ordering system. Does that make me lazy? Maybe, but I can easily buy my toys elsewhere, and I'm sure this is costing navwar. Just because something was good enough in the past doesn't necessarily make it good enough now. Hope this doesn't come across as rude, as I said, I have ordered from them before and I'm sure I will do again.

Would like to echo the above – I have ordered a number of items by post – sent a cheque with the order – products arrive within a few days carefully packaged.

if only every other supplier/manufacturer was so difficult!!

I had a great experience with them as well when I ordered. Just pretend it's 20 years ago-- mail off your order today and marvel at how fast it comes, all things considered…

And on top of that the models are about half the price of any US distributor!

It sounds like my kind of place! Right on.

In terms of turn around Navwar are the fastest company I've dealt with. If I fax early in the morning, I can pretty much guarantee receiving the order the next day. Of course I'm in the UK, not the US.

I've always gotten the impression it's a pretty deliberate system – he's busy enough that being more accessible would lead to not being able to cope with the demand, so better to cater to his existing customer base well rather than chasing after more customers at the expense of good service.

That's the impression I have gotten as well.

I guess it comes down to the same thing as watching a TV show you don't care for, change the channel if you do not like what is on. If you do not like how one has to order Navwar products, don't, just take your business elsewhere. So he does not have internet ordering, I have seen enough posts on TMP that leads me to believe that internet ordering has its own problems. How many posts have we seen that state, "I got ripped off by so and so for $150.00"? Has Navwar done that, to my knowledge he has not.

Mike

Thanks ever so much for your responses. Doing business with the world can overwhelm many "cottage hobby industries" that are comfortable maintaining a "just right for one or two people" level of business.

I sincerely hope they are able to survive the economic downturn that is just around the corner when service efficiencies and ways of generating new business will become even more critical as small businesses fight for sales against the world wide lowering of "disposable" income that will be available to potential consumers. The past few years have seen fairly unprecedented growth in our hobby/industry. Modernization through electronic media presents real advantages in inventory/production control, which really helps small business make money.

Thanks again for your kindness and support. Will

I like dealing with Navwar It's rather quaint and reminds me somewhat of my first figure buys back in the 1980's where you sent off a check and five weeks later what you ordered turned up. Although Navwar is much better and (postal services not withstanding) is typically a 4-5 day turn around from sending the cheque to receiving the parcel, better than a lot of Internet companies.

I was in North London a few weekends ago and had the opportunity to visit the shop. There were at least half a dozen people in there when I arrived.

As suggested by Dom, it may be a deliberate system, if he's earning a decent, low-stress, enjoyable living from what he does right now why does he need to have the additional hassle and workload of additional internet orders?

All the original poster said was that he found it a bit strange that in this day and age a retailer would have neither online shopping nor email.

It is a bit strange. What's the big deal?

The reason for my query…

Our gaming group began a new campaign based on the Cold War Commander set of rules. Two players, including myself, have begun working on a 1985+ British force. For my part I am doing the UK Berlin Brigade and would like to be able to field all the appropriate equipment within a reasonable period of time (couple of weeks).

picture

picture

picture

There are a number of items unavailable from our local suppliers whom I would prefer to support in this difficult economic time but they had no idea when they would get what I needed from the UK, so I decided to go directly to the manufacturer for a quick turn around and to try to support them directly cutting out the middle shipping delay.

I thought that was a good idea: actually supporting a "cottage industry" allowing them to make their full mark-up, as well as saving the shipping and processing time at a US retailer end.

That's all "well and good" if the cottage industry is really interested in the business, but based on the performance thus far I'd have to say they don't seem interested in a fairly substantial order (over $100) after over a week's delay in answering my original query with an almost unreadable (the only word I could make out on the return fax was "received") reply, and no apparent progress since my credit card hasn't been billed nor have I heard there is a problem.

If they aren't interested in my order I can work through a local supplier. That would have been nice to know up front now that I've invested over three weeks in the process thus far.

I understand your "I'm right around the corner", and "isn't nostalgia wonderful" postings but a "World Wide Supplier" can't survive for long in the current market if they don't communicate with their customers.

Thanks again for you informative dialogue. Will

I just order through Mark at Scale Creep. I just don't have the time to go get a Money Order and in the world of identity theft, I don't put checks in a mailbox.

Navwar is one of the oldest wargaming suppliers in the UK and has survived when many other more ambitious and 'go getting' companies have failed.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to go under.

Your experience with them is different to mine, and I can see your point and understand your frustration, but don't judge a supplier by one order.

Ah, I see the problem now. Opsctr seems to have no patience.

"after over a week's delay in answering my original query with an almost unreadable (the only word I could make out on the return fax was "received") reply…"

What's that? A whole week went by before you recieved a perfectly acceptable old school hand written reply? Shock horror!

Seems to me the trouble is at your end with your over dependence on the "demand response RIGHT NOW" attitude that the internet has spawned.

NAVWAR is old school and many of us old enough to remember the pre-internet days (and for that matter many younger customers who have more tolerance) are perfectly happy with that. A week to two weeks is a perfectly acceptable response time. In my book that is actually pretty good, considering they are running a busy business with, I think a very small staff indeed (is it a one man op?) and the reply is coming by post.

The illegible handwriting is more of a problem, but the important thing is that you know your order has been received and acknowledged. Which with NAVWAR means your purchase will arrive soon. It always does with NAVWAR. You've been waiting, what? Two weeks? Then your order will probably arrive very very soon now (baring in mind that the larger the order, the longer the one or two people will take to put it together).

NAVWAR has seen internet businesses, fad businesses and those that embrace the latest "in thing" come and go – has outlasted more blink and you miss 'em operations than you can count. But its still there, still doing it the old way. And if its lasted this long doing it that way it probably will carry on continueing until the owner retires. And good for them I say.

The internet has rather spoiled us. Thanks to the World Wide Web we now all expect everything so instantaneously these days. We tend to forget that this is a luxury, not a necessity. Old school, by its very definition, potentially takes longer. However, three weeks is still a decent response time, even on the internet, never mind snail mail. And as other have said, many an internet business has messed up or taken months, not weeks – using the internet to run your business does not automatically mean you are more efficient or better.

So basically, to recap: two to three weeks is still a good response time. If you are unwilling to allow decent time for the business to respond, perhaps the fault is actually yours, not theirs?

Personally, I've never had any trouble with NAVWAR. My old style letter and cheque have been sent off snail mail every time, and every time, after just a week or three, my purchase has arrived, no quibble.

NAVWAR is fine, you just have to be willing to be patient and WAIT.

Scutatus, somehow I knew someone on this forum would turn this around to be the fault of the person who is trying to make the purchase. You must be a bureaucrat.

Funny, on the same day I sent the fax to NAVWAR I sent a similar fax to Tankograd in Germany for the reference material necessary to duplicate the unit I was ordering from NAVWAR. They got it right even though we were dealing in different languages and my books arrived in 11 days since I mailed them the credit card information because they suggested I not fax or supply via e-mail because they'd had problems along those lines. My original order was acknowledged by e-mail shortly after I sent it and the payment was also acknowledged the day it arrived.

Also on the same day I ordered the bases from Litko over the Internet. They were shipped the next day from Indiana. I had them two days later with no special handling required.

I miss the folks at Heroics & Ros. They at least acknowledged my orders when received and made every effort to get them out within a day or so.

The supplier here has no idea when his two month old order will arrive so I went to another retailer located in Wisconsin who has a web presence. Based on the response from the "peanut gallery" on this forum I suspect I will not receive anything from NAVWAR so an hour ago I ordered just those things I need to complete the forces necessary for the first campaign game via the Wisconsin suppliers web site. My transaction had posted to my credit card just before I began this response so I expect it will be here by the weekend.

Oh, what is a "REAL actual letter mind"? Some sort of Brit speak? I should contact old Pete from the Exiles to see if he recognizes the dialect. Funny!

Happies… Will

I too remember a time when, with snail mail, a turnaround of four weeks from the time you posted the order until it arrived on your doorstep (in Sydney) was regarded as "prompt".

But now I chafe at the absence of PayPal access or even secure online ordering, and having to use the "printable order form". I find myself obsessively checking each day's mail, as soon as seven days has elapsed after ordering wondering "what the H**l is taking SO LONG?".

This when practically everything I started off gaming with, from GHQ Micro Armor(tm), to Platoon 20 VietNam miniatures, was simply unavailable here, and I was happy to wait, just to have the things.

Yes, we're spoiled…………

Ducked

I bet you guys who defend the old ways long for the days before pennicillin and air conditioning too.

Ok, Bede19025, you made me laugh.

Thanks,

Dan (an old guy who loves instant gratification)

I started buying from Navwar in the 70's and they have always been reliable and by the standards of postal transmission, prompt.

That said, in the 70's and 80's people didn't steal mail to steal identities and sending a credit card number by mail didn't feel like an insane risk. Times have changed and sending a personal check isn't secure, sending a credit card number is positively nuts and even faxing data has risks. Unless you want to go through the hassle of physically buying a money order which raises currency conversion issues for those of us not in the UK, along with requiring a visit to the post office ( think hell but with longer lines and surlier employees ) to buy said money order, the process simply isn't terribly sensible in the year 2009 if any alternative exists.

I understand that the owner of Navwar isn't necessarily interested in all the business he is losing. He especially isn't interested in overseas sales with his 40% markup on shipping. I've heard that he's in quasi-retirement at this point.

He's the owner of the business, and its his to do with as he pleases. But just because that's his personal lifestyle choice, doesn't make it good business practice.

I keep hoping somebody who is more motivated would buy the molds off him. There's a lot of money being left on the table under the current arrangement – and a lot of consumers who would love to own the fine navwar models, but are quite reasonably not interested in jumping through the various hoops the current owner insists on.

Bottom line, there is a strong demand for a more current order and communication system -- the only question is when and who will step up to fill it.

I'll admit that I've stopped, a long time ago, any purchases that I cannot pay for by credit card or PayPal instantly. The hassle of trying to buy IMO to the correct amount for that day's currency exchange and postage was a nightmare in the '70s when I used to order Mini-Figs from the UK (delivered in boxes full of sawdust). Couple that with the need to actually make a trip to the PO, mail the order, wait a month or more to even find out if they got my order, deal with back orders, etc., and it is not worth it in this day and age.

Navwar stuff is nice, but to be honest, like those of other vendors, if I cannot buy them directly from the maker or a store front (The Last Square carries Navwar), I don't. He does not miss my business and I don't miss his product. Fair all the way around.

Dan

Yet another voice to say that all of my many experiences with Navwar have been positive.

And like a couple of other posters if it wasn't for the snail mail I would undoubtably ordered far too many impulse items.

How did he do that??? Scutatus "really" changed his post after I poked a bit of fun at his choice of wording, and his strong hint that I (and customers like me) am at fault for ordering from NAVWAR in the first place thus disturbing the tranquility of the proprietor's idyllic space within the confines of London in the 1980's.

Why can't I change my post long after I see how others respond to my words, my thoughts???

How long does our "edit" ability last??? Can I come back in several hours after "testing" the waters with a post and soften my words or completely change what I've written???

What have I missed??? OK, so I know I can edit for as long as I stay on the forum in one continuous pleasure feast of wargame "blogging". All the more reason to quote the offending passages in my response.

Somehow I feel cheated.

Informative??? Will

I have quite a bit of stuff from NavWar, bought from Spirit Games. Spirit Games charged me p&p at cost, NawWar charges 40%.
*Nuff said.

"Based on the response from the "peanut gallery" on this forum I suspect I will not receive anything from NAVWAR so an hour ago I ordered just those things I need to complete the forces necessary for the first campaign game via the Wisconsin suppliers web site."

So what happens when your order from NAVWAR turns up (as I'm sure it will)?

Mike, As of 10 minutes ago my credit card has not been charged by an overseas organization since Tankograd charged me for the reference material, but regardless I will welcome the additional H&R items to complete the 1985+ units I will be duplicating for the CWC campaign currently underway.

I only purchased the minimum necessary for the first game from the Last Square yesterday. My first game is next week so I will be busy this weekend completing those items GHQ or CinC doesn't offer (which isn't much but those assets are critical for success under the CWC rules) like AAA, transport vehicles, armoured cars, and helicopters from that era.

Will

You know the real irony of this thread, Navwar will never see it and I am sure he does not care about it either.

Mike

"I understand that the owner of Navwar isn't necessarily interested in all the business he is losing. He especially isn't interested in overseas sales with his 40% markup on shipping. I've heard that he's in quasi-retirement at this point."

The retirement bit concerns me--I add a few bits and pieces here and there over the last few months/years but had not heard about this. Are the lines in danger of going extinct?

I suspect he'll be doing it a few years yet. . . just maybe tapering off.

Still. . . I wouldn't wait around to get what you want. Its likely that someday he will just stop without much in the way of warning.

I had to write off Navwar years ago as a company that just doesn't want to make itself accessible to me, being a US customer. I'm sure they're fine folks and do a good storefront business, but they obviously don't need and don't want my business, so I take it elsewhere.

Compared to other companies it is a bit of a hassle to order from Navwar but not much. Instead of filling in a basket on the net I fill one out in real life and mail it. The only time "lost" is the time it takes the mail to go from my place to his. After all regardless of how I contact him, he must mail me the stuff by "snailmail". So i might "loose" 2-3 days, big deal…

When I started wargaming about 20 ys ago there was Navwar, and it is still there today. People say "he does not want my money and i don´t want his stuff. who cares? He´s been in business for a long time, he wont miss you. So who cares?

I have ordered from him several times and have always been pleased, and if it takes some time? doesn´t matter that much, its my hobby not some important surgery that NEEDS to be done on a certain time.

Follow-up…

The items I ordered from The Last Square arrived Friday, three days after I sent them the order.

I have sent a follow-up fax to NAVWAR but received no reply, nor has my credit card been charged for the order they have had for almost a month.

I will make a final post should NAVWAR ever fill the order.

Thank you all for your comments and support. Will

I faxed an order to Navwar on Thursday and despite two days of postal disruption in the meantime they had arrived today.

Two thumbs up from me.

I've ordered from Navwar from the other side of the planet and had no problems.

I do take issue with his request that I must suggest alternative ships – in case he doesn't have the ones I want in stock (whatever happened to the radical concept of being able to buy what I actually want!?), but I always put a polite note on the fax saying "No alternatives please – quite happy to wait if items need to be cast" – and everything I want comes through OK in a couple of weeks or so.

Spirit Games did indeed offer a very good service (as someone mentioned above) – but Navwar have recently stopped supplying them.

I know this may come as a shock to some of you, but the great majority of wargame "manufacturers" are part-time ventures. The only way you can make it in this business on a full-time basis is to hit upon a really "happening" range of figures, or have an alternate source of income like a company retirement, or work at another job so you don't starve while operating your little business.
I operated the Viking Forge as a full-time operation for seven years in the 1990's until I realized I was never going to put my boys through college that way. I run it as a part-time business now and one of the reasons I don't accept Paypal is I don't want people to think they are going to get an order in the mail the day after placing it. As one of the readers above pointed out, it is a matter of controlling expectations.
Do I lose orders as a result of this? You betcha. Someday I will probably take Paypal, but for now the most important thing is to keep my day job. In this economy, that is the best strategy for the time being.
I haven't kept up with who runs what at Navwar in the last few years, but if we are talking about Tony Anderson, I have always found him to be a standup guy. Order from him with confidence, even if it is a little incovenient.

I'd like to buy some Navwar 1/3000 modern ships but I look it hasn't a email adress,so I can't ask anything and I have to order by fax or by letter.
I live in Italy and for payment I always used Postepay(Visa or Visa Elctron).Is good for this business? Could any Italians help me?
P.S:
Navwar VS Skytrex : what is better?

Lucawar, the 1/3000 ships from Navwar and Skytrex are pretty similar, though I (slightly) prefer Navwar's. Spirit Games may still have the Navwar ships you're looking for – you can email them at salnphil@spiritgames.co.uk, and check out link