"vehicle assembly instructions or lack of." Topic

Why do vehicle manufacturers almost invariably never include a set of instructions or simple line drawings to go with their models? I'm a reasonably experienced wargamer/modeller with a decent reference library, yet many times sit down with a bag of whitemetal bits and try to make sense them. E-mail queries to the designer either get ignored or refer you to their website for a one view photo as a guide. We don't buy other self assembly products like furniture without expecting guidelines and instructions. It does my head in!

I tend to have more problems with guns that come in several pieces – and I don't mean the wheels!

Build a twin soviet 30mm AA model (15mm) and had several small bits left over. I'm still not sure if it went together properly.

What is it that are you trying to assemble?

Quality Cast is notorious for this. I recently ordered 6 of their 155mm howitzers (3 for me and 3 for a friend). All 6 were in one bag, each gun had 15 pieces and there were no instructions. I was able to figure it out but a simple diagram would have been welcome. By the way the guns were excellent.

I completely agree with you, I have a tough time with this also.

Trying to put together an Italian AS37 with 20mm Breda mount.

My only real problem to date was with the Battlefront Bofors twin AA gun. It was solved by a search of their articles.

For some manufacturers at least, you might try that. Otherwise it can indeed be a pain.

At least 1/72 plastic kits tend to usually come with assembly instructions.

A prime complaint for me too. Some companies include cryptic notes but on the whole we are expected to just know organically how to put the parts together. It's like leaning music ala the Music Man. "Think armored car, think armored car, think armored car"

Come on guys, cut the poor vehicle manufacturers some slack. Think of how much effort it would require for them to take pencil in hand and write down the instructions or draw a diagram on paper each time they sold a kit. Why in Marc's example alone, Quality Cast would have had to hand-draw 6 diagrams.

Now if only someone would invent a system where the companies could have someone write down the instructions or draw diagrams only once and then make a copy for each kit….:)

And then keep carefully fled copies of each relevant diagram and have to pi ck and pack them as well. Question is, are you willing to pay 50p/$1 per item extra for the diagrams?

Sounds like someone bought some Black Tree tanks… The are NOTORIOUSLY badly fitted w/ no instructions. Voice of experience talking here.

What makes things much worse, is that unbelievably in this day of cheap digital cameras, manufacturers out there expect you to buy a model without even having a picture of it on their site. A picture, even of an unpainted model, tells you just about everything you need to know as to assembly.

There are countless times I've seen posts on this site asking if anyone had photos of this or that figure or vehicle.

A basic photograph of the subject would be tremendously helpful.

At first, my reaction to the topic was: 1) These are small manufacurers and don't have the resources of, say, established plastic model companies; and 2) From what I hear, there are not many pieces in these kits. So cut them some slack.

But, I thought about it for a little, and recalled some of the trouble I've had in the past with Rocco/Premo kits (I am a very experienced plastic modeler), which are also of very few, if any parts. But these, and Hat easy assembly kits always come with directions. Always. What might be obvious to some is not to others, including me.

So yeah, it's really not good that someone, even a very small operation, be expecting money for model kits for which he provides no instructions.

And then keep carefully fled copies of each relevant diagram and have to pi ck and pack them as well.

I have many kits from Toby Barrett, some of which require minimal assembly, but all of which come with instructions. If he could do it, and if you can properly keep pieces cataloged for packing, you should be able to do it with instructions. It should be viewed as important a "part" for the model as the turret or tracks.
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Tim

I think that a small percentage of the models out there could use instructions, mostly guns, engineering vehicles, and aircraft. I've got over 1000 different type of minis falling into those categories, and have needed some sort of instruction maybe 10 times.

I think the problem comes from the time/cost to have the original drawings/instructions produced. As a gamer, I do not want to pay for them in most cases.

Over the weekend, I noticed that Askari Miniatures (which tends to do colonial period guns and limbers) has added a 20 page artillery assembly section to their website. It includes photos of the parts prior to assembly, photos of the completed models, historical photos of the guns and limbers, and written instructions. Really quite nice. I can print or download the section (or just parts of it) for my own evil purposes, as required. Askari doesn't have to increase the price of the kits to provide me with a mimeographed drawing showing how to do it.

Quite a nice idea on their part.

Oh, yeah, he also mentioned plans for a limber and pneumatic tires for the M1896 French 75mm gun, which is nice to know. Sadly, he does not mention making a Colorado National Guard crew in winter uniform. The Colorado NG had at least one 75 in the late 1970s, which they used for avalanche work.
Grelber

If he could do it, and if you can properly keep pieces cataloged for packing, you should be able to do it with instructions. It should be viewed as important a "part" for the model as the turret or tracks.

But you are generally still not willing to pay for it, and it does all take time and money. You are possibly forgetting that the vast majority of wargames manufacturers do this in there spare time, evenings and weekends, and time is vey much a limited resource.

That said, we do have this: link

That took quite some time to put together (the instructions, not the model, although that takes a little time and patience too)

What makes things much worse, is that unbelievably in this day of cheap digital cameras, manufacturers out there expect you to buy a model without even having a picture of it on their site.

We find these comments are generally from people who don't actually have to do it , and think it takes just a click of a button to instantly take, edit and add photos. :-)

We have added several hundred photos over the last couple of years. It all takes out of mastering, moulding and casting time, even taking photos of new items as you go along. If you checked our recent Hobby News announcement, you'll see some of the issues that come from 'just slapping them up' ithout spending time to carefully light the model – shadows create issues that don't really exist.

Oops, excuse me, haven't got time to go into more details, it's 7am and have to sort the children before heading off to work – will be able to deal with the hobby stuff again later…

Actually I was doing this last night with one of Artizan's airborne 6-pounders -- squinting at the single picture on the website trying to work out which way up the trail bits go.

Vehicles I don't seem to have such trouble with, but guns always seem a pain -- I still haven't worked out if I've got the Pak40 for the Germans assembled properly. It looks right from the front, but not from the back…

Partly depends how many pieces the things have got, but I spent ages trying to work out if I'd got the gun barrel the right way up on an Irregular 6" howitzer and that only had four pieces!

Photos of the assembled models are helpful, or photos of the real thing, in the absence of assembly instructions or a parts list. Even simple stuff like scribing 'L' or 'R' on the inside of track assemblies can be useful.

I went out and bought a bunch of books on artillery so I could figure out how to put a bunch of guns together. There are still some parts which are pure guesswork. Even a trip to Aberdeen Proving Grounds to get pictures of the real things did not always help.

My favorite are the exploded diagrams where the arrows point from a distance and you still have no idea where the part goes.

I recently built a Russian manufactured kit of a German K18. Beautiful model, but it must have had 200 parts (even the breech block had seven parts), and was supplied with the over so helpful 'vaguely pointing arrows' type assembly instructions.

Urgh. Got it together in the end though.

…exploded diagrams where the arrows point from a distance…

Hmm, now there's an idea, that would be easier to do…

I have a Crusader AA kit I opened up, looked at then put back in the box. Lots of other things to put together before I play with that again.

I came at this topic as a wargamer, wanting an easy to assemble vehicle, robust enough to take an evenings wargaming without worrying about twiddly bits falling off halfway through a game. I've never been a big fan of resin vehicles until I bought AGN products. God bless them for producing high quality kit with little or no assembly, minimal parts and no skimping on detail. Perfect!The emphasis is on wargaming. I used to wargame and help out with SHQ Miniatures who had an ongoing debate within the company about the thin line between the simplicity of producing vehicles and artillery/anti-tank models which appealed to the average wargamer and producing a product which would have enough parts and detail to attract a military modeller, thereby doubling the sales. All I'm trying to say is, if a company produces such a product attempting to bridge that gap, give us a fighting chance of putting it together. I can't count the amount of times I've been left with small metal bits with no idea of how important they are to the overall look of a model. Even if I knew where these bits went, how long will they stay on without locating holes and lugs? Crouchie of Chieftain Models is an example of someone who got it. Always helpful, he referred me to his website where I could find the aforementioned exploded drawings where all the info was to hand to help me decide what detail I could afford to include or not on my purchases.

You are possibly forgetting that the vast majority of wargames manufacturers do this in there spare time, evenings and weekends, and time is vey much a limited resource.

No, I haven't. But that's really an excuse that could be used for anything. In my opinion, a model is a model and should have directions. <shrug> If that's part of the cost (and of course it is) it's part of the cost.

We find these comments are generally from people who don't actually have to do it , and think it takes just a click of a button to instantly take, edit and add photos. :-)

You are correct, it is much harder than most people think. But it's still, in my opinion, an essential task if you are asking people to give you money for your models.

Since your models, from what I gather here, have very few parts, then the arrow type directions would be fine.
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Tim

You are correct, it is much harder than most people think. But it's still, in my opinion, an essential task if you are asking people to give you money for your models.

I guess I'm one of the few people that really isn't that bothered by not having pictures. Probably due to the fact that when I started this hobby there was no internet and the best you got when requesting a catalogue from a manufacturer was a xeroxed sheet with a list of the models. You got used to ordering samples then putting in an order when you had seen them in person.
I find that having pics doesn't help much. Either they show nicely put together and painted models that give you no idea what the bare metal will be like (a well painted model can hide a multitude of sins!) or they are pictures of unpainted models that you can't see any detail on.

But that's really an excuse that could be used for anything.

My wife says something similar, when she wants me to do things round the house instead of dealing with emails and customer orders…

If that's part of the cost (and of course it is) it's part of the cost.

Well there's one person who won't complain if the cost goes up to account for it… Can we point the complainers back to you as the reason? :-)

But it's still, in my opinion, an essential task if you are asking people to give you money for your models.

The jury remains out on that – ranges with photos are not selling significantly higher than ranges without. Overall sales are up, but that could be a multitude of factors.

Perhaps, but maybe it's because you are dealing with customers who are not modelers first who also are begging for material in a scale with available ranges that are not overwhelming. As opposed to modelers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah it's nice to use the wife and I'm a small operation, but in all seriousness, Geoff, it's still an excuse, the same ones that can be used if someone is providing slow service, mismatched parts or forgotton orders, for examples. I provide database services and I have a wife and tasks around the house, a very demanding maintenance management day job and, oh, I'm also on dialysis 4 times a week for 4.5 hours at a time. If I am invoicing for a product there are standards I must meet and it doesn't matter that my wife wants things done around the house or I am vomiting as a result of treatment or I am up late preparing to train folks at my day job or providing detailed reports substantiating millions of dollars worth of charges my day job levies against the local hospital. There are certain standards a customer expects. <shrug>

A model kit is a model kit and a properly done one has directions. Simple as that. Oh, and decals, painting guide and a fairly well researched historical summary. But seriously, again, that's what modelers expect. "Gamers" seem to have different standards and if it's working for you it's working for you. But charging money for assembly kits without instructions is providing an incomplete service.

Sorry to nag and I hope you don't thin k I'm putting you down – the stuff I've seen you proudly plug on hobby news over the years is some good looking stuff! But in my opinion, and it's only my opinion, as important as any part of the kit is a set of directions that, for example, with your T-62 kit, indicate which searchlight part goes with the hatch and which goes near the mantlet.
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Tim

well said ditto bird.

Ditto Bird, I think you might have it reversed. Most novices would probably find the instructions to be crucial. Most serious model builders that I met over the years, usually have more documentation than the manufacturers on any given model.

Crikey! I must be a genius!

I assembled a QRF armoured car once and didn't even need to look at a photograph to realize the turret went on top!

But in all seriousness, I can understand the frustration of Ditto Bird in some instances, but not in others. When I make a master model for QRF I always presume that the purchaser is a wargamer and will therefore prefer quick assembly, rather than a modelling experience. So the fewer parts to assemble the better.
But then you get the problem that some purists will be critical if that compromises fine detail. So it becomes an issue of balance between what the majority want, and what the purists will complain about.
Yes, I agree that it would be nice if there were instruction sheets for assembling the more fine detailed models. I just received one from Quality Castings this morning! But on the other hand Geoff is quite right that the amount of time take to put the correct instructions in with each model would really increase the time to pack them, and thus add a lot to the cost.
As an example:- Many of the QRF models that were sold here in Australia in the past seven years have a descriptive cover added, giving details of the contents and a national flag, rather than just the rather vague product number on the label, as they come from the UK.
Now it seemed like a good idea at the time. And I dutifully assembled self adhesive sticker files for most products, each with the name of the contents and a flag. Some done in various national colours to help customers visually see what they were at conventions.
It only required printing out the stickers, peeling them off, and putting them on each label.
SURE!!! Time taken to do that was amazing. Sure it worked and they looked great. No doubt it also worked with the customers because they could now easily spot the nationalities and read on the front what each bag contained.

But the time it took! I had to call on some of my wargames friends to help, because it was a very time consuming business. AND we had lots of cases of having to correct mistakes every time we tried to get some speed up, because doing it fast meant mistakes.

Ditto Bird suggests that this can be achieved by simply adding to the cost. But hey….come on! What is the first thing wargamers expect at a convention??? Oh yes…they want a discount! So there goes your price increase to cover the cost. And do they just want a few cents off? Not likely, most want at least 10% and some much more.

Wargamers as a group, do like a bargain. And because they like a bargain the ability to recover extra costs is low. If I travel to CANCON or to MOAB from Adelaide….and I'm sure the same applies to anyone that has to travel to a convention….the cost of doing so is high. Petrol, food, accomodation, and a stall, would cost me $1,000.00 Australian dollars at least. Then when I get there I will be facing traders who only travel short distances, their costs are less, and so they will be offering discounts.
The wargamers arrive and they look around all the stalls, see what is going, then open their wallets. On the first day or so they will by the items on special. During the last day all will be looking for cheap bargains.

And Ditto Bird….please don't try to tell me that you don't like to get a bargain at a convention too! So while what you say may sound plausible….and I suppose it is to some extent….your comprehension of the ability to add to cost and recover the expense is way off target.

Putting photographs on the web site should help. I've provided Geoff with as many as I can. But when you have several hundred items in your range, putting instructions in with them is just nowhere near as easy as you make it sound.

Having sweated over a few complicated models myself, you have my sympathy. But cost would have to be substantially increased in order to meet the expectations of the customers…AND recover expenses.

Of ourse it's an excuse. Everyone knows that once I've finished my day job dealing with student immigration issues, sorted out the house, done the cooking and cleaning and got both kids to bed I still have another 20 hours in which I should be drawing up diagrams to add to models ;-)

Ultimately, something has to give and unfortunately it is usually what remains in essence a hobby business that brings in no actual income.

The wargamers arrive and they look around all the stalls, see what is going, then open their wallets. On the first day or so they will by the items on special. During the last day all will be looking for cheap bargains.

I actually had one wargamer offer to buy things from me at a substantial discount to save me the effort of carrying them home…

The jury remains out on that – ranges with photos are not selling significantly higher than ranges without. Overall sales are up, but that could be a multitude of factors.

I remain unconvinced that pictures sell figures and such to hobbyists. Price matters more than pictures.

I had someone on TMP whinge about how one of the ranges I sell did not have pictures, and how he would not buy if there were no pictures. After I'd put up pictures the same TMPer then whinged that he would not buy because the range was ridiculously (highly) priced. The prices hadn't changed, of course, between one whinge and the next.

Ian

When you do put up pictures, they are then the wrong sort of pictures, not in colour, not in the paint job they want to see, not the right angle, too big (which shows up defects not normally visible), too small, poorly lit (which highlights shadows that make it look like there are defects that are not really there)…

I would put up more, but we are kinda busy fulfilling orders from customers. Well, Chas is. I'm at work…

The scale of the model makes a difference as well. Something in 15mm will probably easier to work out then 28mm as it will probably have fewer parts/have less detail. I know thats not always the case but most will be.

When you do put up pictures, they are then the wrong sort of pictures

So I found out when I sent some of my photographs for the QRF site! I think the first one was only up there 24 hours when I was told I had given one tank the wrong camouflage!

I cant speak for other gamers but when I buy figures I am usually building armies of 500 to 1000 figures most often in 28mm. I usually buy in one or two installments. Poses are important to me. If there are no pictures or if I dont see the figures somewhere I dont buy. Price is a question on volumn orders but its not a deal breaker. Lack of communication is.

When it comes to multiple part assembly I expect diagrams or pictures. I spent way too much time recently on some 75s trying to figure out which end was up on the barrel.

Quality Casting had some 88s in 15mm that had about 30 parts. I passed and blessed another gamer with some gifts.

I may not be the typical gamer but there are others out there like me.

Referring to this topic: TMP link and this image from of the auctions: picture (not sure if it will show up on its own), the talented painter who made these Panthers with the tracks on backwards and the decals in the wrong place could certainly have benefited from a set of directions (I'm sure BF must include them, so in this case, buddy did not even read them).

And referring to my example of the IR searchlights on your T-62 model, the two lights are indeed different, so how does a wargamer figure out which goes where? Probably by the fittings I guess.

Anyway, Mal and others can rationalize all they want – a properly sold model should have directions. It's as simple and as fundamental as that. Tsk tsk!

Of course I acknowledge the hobby business has a lot of non-business issues to be accounted for and obviously the lack of directions is not a problem for some.

Anyway, I'm a plastic modeler (for which, BTW, even after market detail sets produced by independents will include instructions) and am a different animal, I guess from most folks posting here.

All the best,
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Tim

Anyway, I'm a plastic modeler (for which, BTW, even after market detail sets produced by independents will include instructions) and am a different animal, I guess from most folks posting here.

If you are a proper plastic modeller then you don't use the instructions anyway other than to check all the parts are on the sprues. I stopped using the instructions when assembling plastic kits many years ago. I do however miss the old Airfix style instructions before they went to the exploded diagrams with the symbols to indicate if you glue or just push together when they had proper written step by step instructions.

Echo Tim.

If you are selling – be a professional and do a complete job… You want money for the model; have a decent set of instructions.

I've put together and painted a multitude of 20mm WWI tanks and such on commission that my customers mailed; NIB white metal, and believe me I took note of which mfgr's had incomplete, unreadable or no instructions whatsoever. Although not my era or scale, etc., I will never recommend their product.

Harrumph!
Only a total whoose would actually READ the instructions. That is very….ummmm…..un-bloke like!
My refusal to read instructions has given my wife many years of entertainment, without which she would not have any where near as many stories to relate to the family when we all get together!

"I guess I'm one of the few people that really isn't that bothered by not having pictures."

You are not alone, Fred. But I think it's a gradual change in modelling culture. There's a similar disconnect in model railroading: you'll find "shake the box" kits with fairly idiot-proof assembly diagrams, but "craftsman" kits with a pile of scale lumber and only a photo of the finished model on the box cover.

A lot of self-reliance seems to have vanished from the wargaming and modelling world. I don't know whether that's a good or a bad thing.

Me, I'm generally happy if all the parts are present, and they look like their counterparts on the real thing. If they're not, you'll hear about it.

Allen

We do. Allen is very good at telling me when we have got it wrong :-)

(And we do listen, honest)

Ahhhh but Allen has got a few artillery grumbles wrong though.

I bought a shredder so I could break complaints down into segments.

Do we have to parade our modelling credentials now?

I am certainly capable of trawling my books and Bellona prints, googling etc and I can put some even quite complex kits together without any instructions, however it is easy to cock it up, particularly for the more esoteric subjects. I can even make replacement parts for bits which are missing.

Sometimes, however, it would be nice to have some sort of explanation of exactly what the little pile of metal bits which just fell out of the bag are all for. I do appreciate that not all manufacturers are in a position to be able to do this.

You can keep your credentials well tucked away Martin

All joking aside, I would love to have the time, money and materials (mainly time!) to be able to do this

If you are a proper plastic modeller

Hmmm, Fred, I think even a cursory review of my work on my site would indicate I am a "proper" plastic modeler as are my various awards from IPMS shows. Please see ucs.mun.ca/~tmarshal

I stopped using the instructions when assembling plastic kits many years ago.

I would then have to respectfully conclude that you are not involved with very challenging kits. Pick up any issue of FSM and you'll see comments on instructions in kit reviews. For models I've done lots of before, and some simple models like the Airfix White Half track I might attempt if I lost the instructions. I've been making models since I was in Kindergarten, ie, 42 years. Based on that experience it is my view that if one is not using instructions, while it is certainly possible to figure it out with small numbers of parts, you still run a risk of not making a model properly – I'm talking here about kits with many parts, not about kits like Geoff's with (as I understand it) very few parts.

I would love to see your work if you were handed a Tamiya 1:35 scale kit and assembled it without instructions. As you say, "proper plastic modelers" put these together all the time without instructions….
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Tim

"Ahhhh but Allen has got a few artillery grumbles wrong though."

Ahem. "Allen does not agree with Mal" does not automatically equate to "Allen has got it wrong". I go by what I see on the models. If it doesn't correlate to photos of the real thing, or the real thing itself, that's not *my* failure.

Allen

I usually can figure out most miniature kits by just googling up pictures of the real items. However if the kits prove to be too much of a hassle life is simple, I dont buy them anymore. Any manufacturer is free to include or not include simple instructions or links on the website and consumers are free to buy or not buy. Simple really.