"A more accurate elf?" Topic

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Sir Bertilak de Hautdesert is powerful, capricious, mercurial, magical, and, most of all, SOLIDLY green. I think that the otherworldliness of this character makes a very different -and possibly more accurate- treatment of elves than Tolkien's characters do. Note that I am not LOTR bashing; that remains one of my favorite works. However, I thought that something from the primary sources might make an interesting variant on the elven race for my next D&D game.

Thoughts?

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"primary sources"

Really? Come on now, that's a silly phrase :)

More accurate? Nothing is more accurate about Tolkien's Elves than Tolkien, even when contradicting himself. That's like saying George Lucas was inaccurate in his description of Jawas.

Now, maybe The Green Knight is somehow "cooler" to you as an Elf, which is totally fine.

Primary sources as in primary referances to the faeries or similar, not silly at all,he just means the original referance as it was perceived by those who wrote it at the time and not re-interpreted for a more modern story like Tolkien has done.
They have existed in some form in human lore since the time of babylon and probably a long time before they were recorded in any way that lasted.
They are between world,neither gods nor men but 'other'

To quote Melvyn Bragg from his splendid introduction to the subject on the In our time programme :-

'They stole little Bridget for seven years long;
When she came down again her friends were all gone.
They took her lightly back, between the night and morrow;
They thought that she was fast asleep, but she was dead with sorrow.
They have kept her ever since deep within the lake,
On a bed of flag-leaves, watching till she wake.'

When the 19th century Anglo-Irish poet Richard Allingham wrote his poem The Fairies, he was replicating a belief about supernatural figures who steal children that stretched back to ancient Persian myths that date from 3000 BC. So universal is the terror of losing a child that the images of a lonely lost child and a mother who loses her child to fairies exist in civilisations everywhere.

Demon Figures and Fairies have undergone a series of transformations according to their historical context, but what remains constant is their supernatural power and their association with the very human concerns of marriage, death and loss.

In what way have fairies changed in guise and purpose throughout history? How did ancient fairy lore sit with the Christianity of the Middle Ages? How were fairies appropriated for the purpose of the 16th century witchcraft trials? And why did fairies obsess so many Victorian artists and writers?

To those who can listen to the BBC online I'd cheerfully recommend this as a really interesting discussion on who the faeries were in myth throughout history and how they changed to suit the cultures telling the story.

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I'd also recommend a listen to the programme on the Fisher King on the same site as well as a range of others.
Quite the finest radio programme thats available in my opinion.

Anyone ever read Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrel? The Man withe Thistledown Hair from that book is my idea of an elf or fairie.

MMMM, now the green Kinght was not an elf but represented the seasons

Few of the older faeries had them in water most lived
in hills and were probably tales told to account for the barrows and their inhabitants

Both the English and the Tartars have legends about warriors that are not dead but sleeping

Veneration of water spirits features a lot in the legends of Wales but they are not faries.

Of course now we know they are Grey Aliens that abduct humans

I'm with GarnhamGast, 'Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrel' was the best characterization of faerie I've come across. I particularly like the idea of magical power being incompatible with rationality so that few men can work much magic while faeries, because they are by human standards quite mad, lack direction for their great magical power.

" The Man withe Thistledown Hair "

Yes, he was a scary character. What a wonderful book, whenever I walk along the Derwent I feel vaguely sorry for the inhabitants who incurred the Raven Kings displeasure.

I agree that the Green Knight is not "an elf" per se
(Perhabs maybe except Oberon himself, as the 'Green Man')
but not,I think, as a template for generic 'elves'
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man

OTOH:
I have often personally equated Elves w/ Kami and angelic Powers
(Seelie w/ 'Angels' and Unseelie w/ 'Daemons' of course)
Given that rational: sure. The Green Man as D&D 'Solar'
dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Solar

Tuatha De Danaan, s'truth.
That places them solidly as NPCs, I would think….

My favorite Elf story:
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The green knight sounds more like a great Irish champion warrior from the emerald isle …perhaps even ulster? if the tale is correct.

Yeah, I can't understand the problem with the idea that there can be primary sources for mythology. Why should this be different than any other area of human history? The issue is not whether elves actually existed, but, what did the people who existed at the time in which elves were taken seriously, actually believe about them?

The primary sources for mythology are sometimes better developed than those for historical armies. I see the over/under arm debate for hoplites has broken out again!

And the length of an alexandrian pike.
That's a good one.
There's one primary source gives a measurement.
Two problems.
Was the measurement just a figure of speach, or was it meant to be precise.
Then there's the unit of measurement.
Can't recall, maybe a cubit.
There are at least 4 different definitions of how long each cubit was.
So you end up with something like 12 to 21 feet.

The "reconstructed" 21 foot one actually bows in the middle under it's own weight.

The pull weight of longbows was another good un.
Read older books and they say 100 to 110 pounds.
Then they dug the Mary Rose out.
There were 180 poundage longbows on board.

Hmmm..
And harrow formation.
Loads of sources describe the use of harrow formation.
Nobody saw fit to say exactly what it is – because everyone knew so why bother describing what was obvious.

Broken Sword by Poul Anderson gives a nice version of Elves. Popes & Phantoms by John Withborne has a different but very cool version of elves but they only feature in a few chapters of this excellent book.

Phil

Also try "Shadowsfall" by Simon R Green for some very different elves.

Personally I prefer Terry Pratchett's elves. Superficially human but an emotional and empathic void. Fits well with the old mythologies of Britain and Western Europe.

The Black Tower "MMMM, now the green Kinght was not an elf but represented the seasons"

I know a few English professors who would disagree. I heard a lecture once in which the idea was Gawaine representing the new, Christian Europe, and Bertilak representing the old Europe of elves and faeries.

I like the mish-mash of elves (or other legendary folk) with whatever peoples had been displaced by the current inhabitants. They live off in the woods. They are sorta like us but different. They can't be saved. Cold iron (maybe something the older culture didn't have) was deadly to them.

I like Tolkien's Smith of Wooten Major. Mostly about people, and their lack of understanding of the elves.

I also enjoyed The Moorchild, I forget the author.

andy