"SYW British Officer lace" Topic

Hey guys,
I just got done painting some British 28s for the SYW and noticed that in my zeal to get them done tonight I painted my officers with gold lace.Then I went and looked at my source(I know, should have looked FIRST then painted) and all the regiments shown(which is limited and doesn't show them all) have silver lace.So my question is are there any regiments were the officers have gold lace? One of my units has yellow facings, the other is buff.
Thanks in advance,Pete

Check here.
The button metal should match the officers' lace.

fifedrum.org/crfd/BD_1R.htm

Have fun finding a regiment. I have always thought that painting up a regiment because you like the facing color was neat. Basing it on the officers' lace is even better.

Hey John, neat site, thanks.I painted the facings on the units cause I liked the colors, but failed to check the officers lace colors before I painted it.Got in a hurry.

YouTube link

but the drummers are wearing the wrong hat

link

Sorry but very serious sources (Lawson or Schirmer for exemple) seem to show that all buttons and laces were silver during SYW period, even for officers.

Gold buttons (and so, gold laces) appeared only a little bit before the 1768 regulation and were officialized into this regulation.
During AWI, you well found gold laces for officers.

I'm afraid you would be obliged to change the color of the lace for your officers…

Frédéric A.

Oddly enough, every single regiment I clicked on had white metal buttons…
Maybe my advice is not all that accurate.

The choice of lace/button color was up to the colonel. You will have to research whatever particular regiment you are doing.

Sorry but regulations for SYW period show silver buttons and laces.

But, perhaps a few colonels changed that in America : far away of the king…

thanks Frederic already changed one units command.
John your advice was right!All the regiments on the site you gave me had silver buttons too.
Thanks Guys!

fitterpete- no need to change anything.

cirederftrebua- your assertion is completely incorrect.
Many British Infantry and Cavalry regiments had gold lace for officers in the period 1740-63.

You say that CCP Lawson shows all officers' buttons and laces during this period as silver- but that isn't the case. Lawson actually quotes several reports of inspections of infantry regiments carried out during the years 1750-60 (Vol II pp96-98). These are very valuable as they show exactly what the units wore at the time. From about 15 regiments mentioned in the reports, the officers of the 7th, 8th, 11th, 12th, 25th all had gold lace.

In addition- I have copies of contemporary portraits of officers of the 10th, 18th, 21st, 23rd, 42nd, 64th and 84th Regiments all wearing gold laced uniforms. These are just the illustrations I could lay my hands in in 10 minutes- I'm sure I have more.

Of course, the officers of all three Footguards Regiments wore gold lace too.

BTW- there were no actual regulations governing the dress of officers during the period- the '1751 warrant' in force at this time only covers soldiers and NCOs.

Apologies, The 1751 Warrant DOES make a brief mention of officers' dress-

"The clothing or uniform of the officers, to be made up in the same manner as those of the men, laced, lapelled, and turned up, with the colour of the facings, and a narrow gold or silver lace or embroidery, to the binding and buttonholes."

Indeed there were both silver and gold laced officers. The metal of the button determined the officer's lace. While there was wide lattitude, there were also regimental standards too. Officers tended to purchase their kits from the same tailors, swords from the same makers. When officers were killed or transfered, they sold their old kits to the new incoming officers, who modified the kit to fit them.

There was great leeway of dress in the field, and it is doubtful that officrs wore laced coats in the field always, as each was expected to have a full dress uniform, and a field dress. There are also wide reports of officers wearing civilian dress in the field as well. It is documented that some Guards officers wore blue coats while on campaign, and I think it was Forbes who wrote Bouquest admonishing officers to wear red coats while on duty, such as while serving on courts marshals, etc. There are at least several portraits of period officers in unlaced coats too, same for the Rev War period.

In short, there was an expected look for officers, and that could have been set by the colonel. Colonel's in this period tended to take the field with their regiments, unlike latter periods, so they were there to enforce that look.

Oh, one other thing. Don't confuse the pewter buttons of the enlited men with what was wore by officers. I am not aware of any enlisted men wearing brass buttons in the British army, but officers often wore gilted or silver buttons. That could be why John's website showed them all as silver.

For instance, all Guards' officers wore gold. There is a strking portrait of Orme, and I have several others at hand too.

Civilian coats quite often worn for knocking about in camp- and maybe out with foraging parties etc. But in Europe at least- the officers would tend to don full regimentals, or something close, for a major battle.

Cool seneffe thanks.I'll leave one unit alone and have all ready changed the other.Thank you all for your excellent help.TMP is a great place to turn when you need answers fast!
Pete
PS I'll probably be back on with more stupid questions when I start painting horse this week, then theres the French after that…..

fitterpete, happy to help.

Re horse- let me know which units and I'll try to dig out any 'off regulations' uniform info.
For the mounts at this period black for all regts except the Greys (of course), 2nd DGs bays, and 11th-14th Dragoons (apparently a mix of brown and black. They usually kept to this pretty well during campaigns as a) black horses were much more common in Europe then than now, and b) most of the home units sending out horses to replace losses in the active regts were mounted on blacks also.

Hey seneffe,
Thought I would go a different route and actually ask before I painted.(Wow look at the big brain on me)
This is what I have planned.I'm using the Foundry SYW British figures for 3 horse units.Not sure if you are familiar with this line but basically I have one unit each of horse grenadiers,dragoons and dragoon gaurds.
The horse grenadiers I am going to paint as the greys(I hate painting grey horses) but I guess I have no choice as they were the only Britsh horse in miters in the SYW, correct?
The dragoons I am going to paint with green facings.
The DG with white facings,3rd DG.
As I said in a earlier post I choose what regiment to paint based on what colors I want to paint them not on any preference for a particular regiment.
So could you tell me what regiments the green dragoons would fit for? I am using the kronoskaf site as my reference.Besides that is there any other?(Besides the "peteaskseneffe" site on TMP)
Thanks Pete

fitterpete, sounds like a good army plan. Greys and 3rd DG both fine regts. Greys in the SYW were a real veteran unit, serving at all major British engagements in the SYW, plus having fought with distinction at all four big British battles in the WAS. Only complete unit to wear the mitre aside from the 2 sqns of Household Horse Grenadiers, who stayed at home during the SYW.

Re Dragoons in Green facings- you have two options, the 4th (mid green) and the 13th (pale green).
The 13th stayed in UK in the SYW and was a pretty shabby outfit- noted for fleeing at both Prestonpans and Falkirk during the Jacobite Rebellion.
The 4th also stayed in the UK during the SYW but had a distinguished combat record in the WAS. It was noted in the army as a real 'show horse' regiment with high standards of dress and discipline. Notably, its drummers were black, wearing turbans rather than caps (like those of the Brunswick dragoons of the AWI), and carrying Prussian style brass sidedrums. The regiment rode black horses except the drummers on greys, and the officers who, inspection reports noted, rode very fine bay horses. The same reports show the officers in buff rather than green waistcoats.

If you want a Dragoon regiment which fought during the SYW (apart from the Greys), you have the 1st, 6th, 7th, 10th and 11th. I would choose the blue faced 1st Royals, or the yellow faced 6th Inniskillings, both of which saw a lot of action in WAS and SYW.

Re reference works- obviously the Kronosaf site is good, but it doesn't always pick up some of the differences between British and European uniform conventions- eg white metal buttons for the men must mean silver lace for officers- not so of course in the British army. So while I'd use it with confidence for Hanoverians, Hessians, etc. I would treat it with a little more caution re the Brits.

The best bet is CCP Lawson's History of the Uniforms of the Britsh Army Vol II. Long out of print but you can pick up copies at a reasonable price (c£20 maybe) on the internet. Its got all the regs plus lots of 'real' info on what was actually worn, complete coverage of Hanoverian uniforms and flags, and dozens of illustrations by the author with a real period feel too.

Hope some of that helps.

Thanks a bunch! My second choice color for the dragoons was yellow so I think I'll go with the Inniskillings.1st Royals sound good but I am already doing the Greys in blue(LOL) and want a little variety.I wasn't sure about the 3rd DG since I don't paint white very well but think they will look pretty cool with those colors.
British and French were actually a after thought for me in SYW.I have a couple thousand painted Prussian,Austrian,and Russian in Foundry and Front Rank figures.For the Brits and French I'm just doing 4 units of infantry and 3 cavalry for each.
It sure is easier finding resource material for central and eastern European armies.Believe me I'm no button counter but I do like to have most things accurate.
Thanks again Pete

Sounds like a great collection- post a few photos when you get the chance.

Dear Pete,
Following cavalry regiments saw actions during SYW in Europe :
Maj. Kellet's Royal Horse Guards "The blues"
Bland's 1st Dragoon Guards "King's"
Waldergrave's 2nd Dragoon Guards "Queen's"
Howard's 3rd Dragoon Guards
Mostyn's (->8/18/60) 2nd Horses
Dejean's 3rd Horses "Carabineers"
Honeywood's 4th Horses
Conway's 1st Dragoons "Royal"
Campbell's 2nd Dragoons "Royal North British"
Cholmodeley's 6th Dragoons "Inniskilling"
Cope's(8/18/60 ->Mostyn's)7th Dragoons "Queen's"
Mordaunt's 10th Dragoons
Ancram's 11th Dragoons
Elliot's 15th D (light)
Morton's or Aberdour's 17th D (light)-> just 50 troops to re-strenght the 15th LD

19th and 20th Light Dragoons served in Ireland and may have provided drafts like 17th LD did…

Green facings = 15th LD and 2nd Horses

Dear Seneffe,
As already writen, Kronoskaf project had made long studies about british uniforms. Seeing there are no official regulation for gold laces for officers, we prefered to show only silver laces…
You are right : Lawson describes some inspections results where gold laces were noticed. But, these inspections are showing perfectly that regulation color was silver : otherwise, the inspector would not notice the gold color…
Moreover, we don't know if all officers wore gold laces within a regiment… Perhaps only high graded officers (??).
You also know that these gold laces were also changed sometimes just after the inspection : Lawson shows this perfectly.
Funny, you are writing that the job for hessians and hanoverians is very accurate : be sure we have made exactly the same researches job for the british army ;-))
For british army, we have the following sources : 1751 clothing warrant, Lawson, Schirmer, Bleckwenn, Morier, Haswell Miller & Dawnay Funcken, Savory, etc…
Anyway, perhaps Kronoskaf SYW project would have to tell readers that, sometimes, a gold lace was watched for officers : I'll propose that to the group…

Seneffe, perhaps do you want to come in our group ?
You seem to be very interested by SYW and to have very precise ideas of it.
It would be a pleasure to propose your coming to the group owner : every SYW 'afficionado' is very welcome !

Best regards,
Fred (Frédéric Aubert on Kronoskaf SYW site)

Frederic,
Thanks for your help and thanks for a wonderful site!

Fred,
Nice try re the inspection reports, but if you read them you will see there is no difference between the Inspectors' comments for the silver and gold laced regiments. Gold and silver are mentioned in the same terms and evidently neither are unusual as far as the Inspectors are concerned.

As you will see from my second post above, the 1751 Warrant explicitly permits both gold and silver lace for British officers. So if thats a basis for the website advice- it might be worth re-reading it, and amending the advice.

Of the sources you quote, Morier and Haswell-Miller/Dawnay are essentially the same and both illustrate only private soldiers and a few NCOs (except for Morier's painting of the 4th Foot). As far as I'm aware Bleckwenn and Schirmer, though the premier experts on Hanoverian and other German states, did no independent research on British uniforms. If they did its an undiscovered treasure… Lawson and the 1751 warrant are clear about both gold and silver lace in use by different regiments. So thats the sources dealt with. If you are doing any serious work on mid-c18th British uniforms, Lawson Vol II needs to be open in front of you all the time.

In the British service, as Historygamer points out, the metal of the officers' lace had no connection with the lace or button colour of the men at this time. It was quite simple in this period- some regiments (all the Footguards, most of the 'Royal' line, and about a quarter/third of the 'non-Royal') had all their officers with gold lace, and the rest of the regiments had silver- there is no formula regarding officers' rank or anything else.

In almost 30 years of interest in c18th British uniforms, I have never seen anyone else suggesting that British officers of the mid-c18th should have only silver lace- so your contention was genuinely new to me, and is quite unusual.

Re the other elements of your post, you're quite right of course that both the 2nd Horse and 15th Light Dragoons had green facings but fp was looking for a Dragoon regiment…

I'm very flattered that you would permit to join your site, but I'm afraid I already spend too long on military uniform issues in the view of my family. I would be happy to give my humble opinions via this site though. Best wishes for your project.

The metal of the officers' buttons, and hence the lace, was up to the colonel to set. There would not be flucuation within that determination. Either the officers wore silver (as most did) or gold, but within a regiment they all wore the same. There was no insignia of rank at this time, nor did the lace, or its colors show such a thing. You were either an officer or enlisted. If an officer, you wore what was accepted by the regiment, and your badges of rank included a sword (or two), a sash, a gorget, and a brighter coat of red, and some undress outfits as well. You hat would have lace, which means gold or silver, etc.

If you have a period account of where silver was to be worn by all, then please share it. Lawson is good, but it is about 100 years old, and better research has been done since that time.

Embleton, Troiani, etc, have done much work on these subjects. Lawson is a wonderful primer, but it is long outdated in many respects.

Historygamer- we've obviously got different views on Lawson, but if you re-read it, you will see that it actually absolutely supports all the points your posts have made. BTW, Lawson Vol II was actually published in 1963, so not so long before Embleton, Troiani et al were at work.
Its by no means outdated, especially as far as unform worn at home and in Europe are concerned.

A quick on-line search shows several confusing publishing dates for Vol I, which goes up to 1760, but one definitely says it was published in 1940. I suspect it might have been earlier, as he did the costume research for the 1930's movie, "The Unconquered", starting Gary Cooper and Boris Karloff (sp?) as Guyasuta. His works were well known then. I know as I went through his notes and drawings for the movie back in the 80's when doing research on the 60th.

His work is great, but it is not final. Turth be known, we keep adding every day to what is known. But there were standards within regiments, even in the SYW/F&I period. I also readily admit though my forte is F&I War, not SYW.

Here is one to blow your mings. Many years ago Parcs Canada obtained a British officers grenadier mitre cap. I seem to recall the facing colors were yellow. Inside the cap, hand written, was a long list of owners. They were able to find all the owners on the officer's lists except the first. Somehow, the found that the original owner was a Hanoverian officer, not a British one. Seems the cap was originally made for another army altogether, but ended up in British service, no doubt from joint service in Europe.

Historygamer- sorry to ask, but do you actually have these books?

Vol I, which covers up to 1714 was published in 1940. Vol II, covering 1715-60, the product of a further two decades of research was published in 1963. There were of course three further vols published after this. I have them all.

These vols are the basis of any collection of British uniform books. Lawson was given unparalleled access to now long dispersed collections such as the RUSM and War Office, to the Royal collection, and to paintings, documents and items owned by prominent families, which have either been lost or closed off ever since.
There has been some useful additional work since especially by the Fosten brothers and latterly Stuart Reid, and I buy pretty much everything that reaches print and try to keep tabs on the rest. But to be frank, it is around the margins, and none of the authors I know would really dispute that.

Ugh. That is "minds," not "mings." Sounds like a Flash Gordon episode.

To answer your question – No, I no longer have Lawson's works handy. I accessed what I needed and moved on. But to be fair, I will re-look and evaluate. I am not above eating crow if I am wrong. Upon reflection, I may be confusing some of his work with Leffert's.

I will get back to you on this. Too important to keep hanging. :-)

Thanks, its a good deabte and I think we and our sources are essentially lined up- perhaps more a question of emphasis than anything. But more importantly, re-reading my last post it looks a little discourteous- no discourtesy intended.

None taken. You rightly challenged my bias against Lawson. The result was a re-thinking of my reasons, a re-checking of my sources.

The result is my purchasing Vol. 3 and 4. If I like them, I will purchase the rest.

To be honest, I haven't looked at Lawson since I was doing research on the 60th back in the 80's. I was conviced then his info on them was out of date, or speculative. There have also been a number of paintings identified since then with what are perhaps 60th officers/enlisted men. Also, a more thorough reading of the Bouquet papers also undermines some of his findings on this regiment as well. No one is perfect, but yes, his works are regarded as very good.

I will look at these two volumes, knowing what I know (and admitting what I don't), and reply with a more up to date opinion.

Good challenge, seneffe. :-)

I have all 5 volumes of Lawson

vol 1 published 1940, 1962 & 1969
vol 2 1941, 1963 & 1971
vol 3 1961, 1974 & 1974 (USA)
vol 4 1966 & 1970
vol 5 1967 & 1970

interesting thread,thank you

Lawson must have been known prior to these published works since he did the military costuming research for "The Unconquered." I saw several other works by him, but did not research the publishing dates.

I think he had quite a long career. He painted some very well detailed battle and camp scenes from the c18th, which I think are now in the collection of the National Army Museum, though I've never seen them on display.

Ones I've seen illustrations of include mid c18th French Infantry on the march, a spendidly chaotic late c17th/early c18th British assault on a fortified position which looks like either Namur or the Schellenberg, and IIRC a good scene of the Greys against the Maison du Roi at ?Dettingen.

He also did a lot of commissions for Anne SK Brown, including versions of British officer William Loftie's sketches of late c18th campaign dress. I think they are all still in her collection at Brown University.

Hope you like Vols III and IV. His sketching had detiorated in quality a little by then. Vol II 1714-60 was IMO his best work. He was in fairness, and supporting your comment, perhaps less complete on dress in N America, not having such good access to American and Canadian collections. But for the uniforms worn by the majority of the army in the UK and Europe, he is still the benchmark.

And that could have been my issue, as I was then F&I centric. I never got into the SYW stuff that much, as far as I can tell, it didn't achieve a whole lot.

Not sure what side of the pond you are on, but did you happen to catch the F&I exhibit that travelled around the country and Canada? It was jaw dropping.

Also, if you are on this side, you have to go to Fort Ligonier, which is the finest SYW museum in the world. Also jaw dropping, and permanent, as the Fort owns the entire collection.

I just got Vol IV. Vol III was returned to the book dealer as postage was due. It seems he turned a USPS priority box inside out and shipped, and you are not allowed to do that. Weird.

Anyway, looking through Vol IV, interesting, large breadth, but not a lot of depth. I'll read more closely and look forward to getting Vol III.

Hmmm… Re 'depth'- don't think that comment really holds water. Lawson was very cautious and precise about his sources, and didn't include the plausible supposition and 'reconstruction' many modern authors use to give depth to/pad out their works- especially where its a wholesale artist's impression.

Every Lawson illustration is taken directly from a contemp painting, sketch, garment or item- many of which are now lost or inaccessible. I'm certainly not aware, to take just one example from vol IV, of any other work which describes Lifeguard and Horseguard uniforms of the 1780s and 90s in such detail.

He does though, its fair to say, concentrate much more on Europe than the Americas, but the latter are a niche in the study of British Army uniforms of the c18th.
Incidentally, speaking of more modern authors, I had the opportunity to pick up Troiani's 'Soldiers in America' for a song the other day. There do seem to be quite a lot of 'reconstructions' in that. But that said he's a fantastic artist who conveys a great sense of place and time, and overall its a really beautiful coffee table 'glossie' that I'm pleased to own.

Fred, if it will help you re the initial subject- I found today (whilst looking for something else) an old article by Gerry Embleton and Phillip Haythornthwaite called 'British Infantry of the Seven Year's War' (Military Illustrated 37 June 1991).
This gives collated details from contemp pictures and documentary sources including inspection returns (but more of them than in Lawson) of the uniforms worn by many British regiments in the SYW. There is a lot of detail about officers' lace. In all regiments, all officers wore the same colour lace regardless of their rank. As you can see, a lot had gold lace, including coincidentally 5 out of the 6 'Minden Regiments'

Officers lace by Regiment: (g= gold, s= silver, nr= not recorded)

1st, 2nd, 3rd Guards- all g, 1st Foot- g, 2nd- nr, 3rd- s, 4th- s, 5th- s, 6th- nr, 7th- g, 8th- g, 9th- nr, 10th- s, 11th- g, 12th- g, 13th- s, 14th- s, 15th- s, 16th- s, 17th- s, 18th- g, 19th- nr, 20th- nr (I believe s), 21st- g, 22nd-g, 23rd- g, 24th- s, 25th- g, 26th- nr, 27th- s, 28th- s, 29th- s, 30th- s, 31st-g, 32nd- nr, 33rd- s, 34th- nr, 35th-s, 36th- s, 37th- g, 38th- nr, 39th- nr, 40th- g, 41st- nr, 42nd-g, 43rd- g, 44th- nr, 45th- nr, 46th- nr, 47th- s, 48th- g, 49th- nr, 50th- s, 51st- g, 52nd- g, 53rd- s, 54th-s, 55th- g, 56th- g, 57th- g, 58th- g, 59th- g, 60th- s, 61st- s, 62nd- nr, 63rd- nr, 64th, nr, 65th- s, 66th- g, 67th- nr, 68th- nr 69th onwrads- nr.

Hope this helps.

By depth, I mean, his books are more a survey than focused, they cannot go into any great detail on one particular unit, etc. And while he does seem to quote from original sources in places, but he does not footnote very well, and thus the reader is left with a, "trust me" situation.

I'm not saying the books are bad, I'm just saying they are limited, especially for those of us with a particular focus on, say, the F&I War, or the Rev War.

Still, I'm glad I have them.

Interesting comment re footnoting. As my primary interest is the army in Europe in the WAS and SYW, I've always referred most to Vol II, which has quite extensive footnoting and references contained in the list of illustrations at the beginning of the book.
But looking at Vols III-V, they don't have such footnotes there. Not sure why- editorial/economic reasons maybe? I know Vol V at least was published posthumously from his notes.

The problem with a lack of footnoting is that no one can either verify his work, nor build upon it. I have to wonder too, how much is just lost as well. That is a shame.