"Help me decide on a 1/2400 manufacturer" Topic

After much medatation and contemplation I have decided to start gaming WWII naval. Since I am in the U.S. it looks like 1/2400 is the scale to go with. I might go with 1/6000 (awefully small!) for the Pacific because of the size of the engagements, but for the Atlantic I am going to use 1/2400. I have not made up my mind on the Med yet.

Anyway, now to build the fleets. I like GHQ ships, but they are very expensive (but very detailed). My biggest concern with GHQ ships is not the price, but their ruggedness. GHQ ships appear to have a lot of small, delicate parts which must be glued on to the model. Much more than any of their competitors it would seem.

This being the case, here are my questions…

1. How well do GHQ ships hold up to gaming? I don't want to have to re-attach broken bits every time I bring them out for a game. Nor do I want to spend a lot of money on a model that after a few games will look like one of GHQ's less detailed (and less expensive) competitors because most of the small parts have broken off.

2. Can you really see all the details of GHQ's 1/2400 WWII ships from average tabletop viewing distance, say 3 feet? Again, I really like the GHQ ships, but can you really see anchor chains and such from 3 feet away? And do people actually paint such small details?

Thanks for replying!

[Full disclosure: I pay other people to paint/assemble for me so my perspective will differ markedly from others here.]

To me the three major manufacturers are CnC, Superior and GHQ. You already have a handle on GHQ which display beautifully, but for the fumble fingered are very high maintenance (in addition to being demanding to assemble and paint.)

It is hard not to wince when a beautifully painted GHQ is being handled at my local game club by guys who just have no concept of "careful." That has taught me the value of Superiors which, while sometimes downright fugly, stand up to all but the most dedicated klutz. But IMO, all things considered -- money, looks, and the robustness factor -- CnC strikes me as the best compromise. I just happen to prefer the relatively "clean" look of a CnC silhouette…others feel elsewise.

Keep in mind however that no one manufacturer makes models of all the ships you might want to collect, so sometimes you might have to mix and match. But I have to admit, it doesn't look good to set down GHQ and Superior ships next to one another on the same board…particularly if they are supposed to be sister ships. It's best, where possible to stick to one manufacturer.

So my opinion is:
=================
Display Only = GHQ
Play Only = Superior
Display & Play = CnC

The GHQ are lovely models but I myself cannot see 70% of the detail from 3 feet. I've seen some stunningly painted models in games with chains, anchors, float planes etc. all lovingly detailed.

I have the My Little Ship Company range in stock. Not quite a complete range (yet) but you can't beat the price:

link

I'm working on getting pictures of the range available ASAP.

Mark "Extra Crispy" Severin
Owner, Scale Creep Miniatures
ScaleCreep.com
DeepFriedHappyMice.com

I went with Panzerschiffe. They are one piece resin castings with enough detail for wargaming purposes and are WAY cheaper than GHQ. I had a friend that tried to use his GHQ stuff and the parts kept coming off during the game due to mishandling, misplaced fingers, etc. GHQ is OK for destroyers, but for anything larger than that I would recommend the Panzerschiffes.

Another vote for CinC.

I think you'll have to use a variety of firms if you want to really fill in fleets and would urge you not to forget Viking Forge (very nice, limited pieces) and Panzerschiffe (true one piece gaming models).

Buy a GHQ and a C in C pack of a fairly 'in demand' class (Brit Leander or US Brooklyn ) and see what works for you for a main manufacturer.

Are CinC ships made with a softer metal than GHQ ships?

Doesn't this make them less sturdy and rugged than GHQ ships?

Do CinC ships have less parts to assmble?

My main concern regarding naval gaming is breakage. I want sturdy ships that look like what they are supposed to represent without looking like they are in need of refit after several games.

Another low cost option is Panzerschiffe. They are resin cast and aren't the most detailed but they are nice looking and will definitely be worth using in gaming. Just a shout out for the beleaguered 1/6000 scale. While it is indeed small, it has the great benefit allowing you to "game in scale" as it were on a standard table. There is no need to weird scale contractions sometimes necessary with larger models. Frankly I like them a lot.

I'll throw in my vote for C-in-C ships as the best compromise, although if I had to do it all again I might go with the Panzerschiffe resin ships for sheer ruggedness and game-time survivability.

I'd also agree with 6Pounder's statement above that nobody makes all the ships needed, so a bit of mix and matching between manufacturers is likely to happen anyway.

CinC and Viking Forge have few parts to assemble, are made of a rugged metal, have nice, clean lines, and cost less. Panzershiffes are tough, cheap and have ships other lines lack. I would opt for those as I don't know anything about My Little Ships. The selection and price look good. What scale and material Extra Crispy?
My fleets (Russo-Japanese, WW I and WW II) are mainly CiC and VF with the odd GHQ or Panzerschiffe. I like 'em!

For small scenarios I would go GHQ. Since there is not much to look at, maybe players will like to see the detail (Yes they will have to lean in). Also, depending on the rules, the detail on the model may be important.

I have a thicker/wider base on my GHQ models so people move the ship by the base not the model. No broken bits yet from gaming.

I like GHQ because they are more interesting to paint up. I do buy Panzerschiff if GHQ doesn't have the model I need.

While I like GHQ, I am now including 1:6000 because of the bigger sized battles and 1:2400 does not seem to work well with some rules.

My vote is for Panzerschiffes. They are very rugged. They paint up nice and look good from three feet. The real plus is that they have the most complete line of any company.
Tom

I like both the GHQ and CinC ships.

The Viking Forge vessels can be quite nice too.

As mentioned, base them, so people don't have to touch the models. That should help prevent some damage. I prefer clear plastic bases for mine, so they can match any colored sea mat.

I suggest purchasing one of the same model from each manufacturer, and comparing the two, in order to make a decision. Probably a good idea to get a capital ship, or cruiser, and a destroyer from each company, for comparison.

GHQ does do some of their detailing overscale, in order to make it more visible. CinC tends to be a bit cleaner and crisper in sculpting style. I like both, but if I had to choose one over the other, I would probably go with GHQ. In many cases, I think the added cost is worth it.

You might try purchasing some when they are on sale, or off of eBay, or try asking here on TMP, since some people sell off whole collections occasionally.

If you can live with a lot less detailing, the 1/3000th vessels are nice game pieces which should survive game play better than their larger cousins. As you have surmised though, 1/2400th seems to be more popular in the USA, while the smaller scale seems to be in Europe.

Escort vessels in 1/6000th will be tiny, so I would only consider using those for large fleet actions.

I prefer 1/3000 scale to Panzerschiffe. Same level of detail, but the smaller ship size looks a little better IMO.

If you've got the money, go with GHQ. Just don't attach the cranes. They are really the most breakable pieces. Most everything else is fine. When properly painted, GHQ models, even at tabletop distance, can be stunning.

If you're going to buy GHQ, get them well painted. If you're an above average painter yourself, go for it. Otherwise use a service like this:

mywifepaintsbattleships.com

Nothing is worse than seeing somebody with an expensive GHQ collection that looks like utter crap because they can't paint worth anything.

I don't think CinC is any more durable than GHQ. In fact, due to the thinner gun barrels, they are probably less durable.

That being said, they are still nice models, and the choice between GHQ and CinC should be made on a case-by-case basis.

Looking or searching back through the boards should yield several useful threads on this topic. You are correct that the trade off is durability vs. detail. It is also cost vs detail. Maybe I'm just getting old but I can't really see 2400 scale ships very well at 3 feet below a BB or Cx. There may be something to 3000 scale ships looking better. 1200 scale ships definetely look better, but are wildly more expensive. I played in a modern Harpoon game put on by a really nice guy who brought GHQ ships. My friends and the GM were very careful with the ships, but by the end of the game we'd broken something on ALL of them.

You can game with GHQ, but you have to make a conscious decision that you will replace the more delicate masty bits with steel or brass wire, and reinforce whatever can't be replaced. When I have a tripod mast I base the ship hull on wood and mount the bridge and mast. I then drill up from below trying to aim up the center of the tripod, nearer the vertical leg than the canted support legs. If I aim it right the drill will nearly follow the vertical leg up through the top structure. Once glued the combined structure is pretty solid. As you might guess I only use GHQ when I have no other choice.

Forget 6000 scale. If youre thinking about going that route, do yourself a favor and switch to counters instead.

The best way to plan a strategy on this is to pick a favorite period/campaign and see who has the most comprehensive line. Since model makers tend to keep scale consistency within their own line their ships will normally look right together. If you go with Panzershiffes, they can be improved considerably with paint and pin wire masts.
If you go with Viking Forge or CinC they are pretty up the middle on quality and durability. Note that the Superior WWII line is sort of dormant.

Since no one makes everything, order some pretty universal ship types and compare scales. Superior ships tend to run smaller than most of the others. A set of Fletcher class DDs from all the lines should provide some useful info.

A wierd exception to all this is Sea Battle. They are available from Viking Forge and Alnavco (who also markets Superior) They are very detailed and very strong, but their line is slanted towards auxiliaries and more modern ships.

The lines listed in this thread are not all that make small scale warships. It seems like everybody is having a go at this. I know 0.0 about "My Little Ships." I never heard about them before today, but I'd like to see some examples/Pix. There are some other smaller lines…there's Molniya that makes mostly predreads. GFI/Minifigs, the guys who make 15mm soldier castings now has a 2400 scale Mackensen BC??? At the last 2 cons that I went to Iron Wind, who make mostly 25mm fantasy, were selling 6000 scale ships.

The new Axis and Allies line of 1800 scale ships is an intriguing development, but their line is very limited thus far and may never expand all that much and their ships ain't cheap.

Hope this helps.

I'm for Panzerschiffe, too. I was surprised at the crispness of detail, and can add masts and other bits at my discretion.

Durability: Based on my experience, if you play on a table (not the floor), any of the scales mentioned above should be reasonably durable. Furthermore, if something ever does break, you can fix it; developing some degree of modelmaking skill is a fun part of the hobby.

Not to hijack the topic, but the OP did mention he was considering 1:6000. That being said, there are quite a few useful posts on 1:6000 which can be found using the TMP search engine. Some more 1:6000 comments:

Size: You can arrange to view the smaller scales from a closer distance. For example, 1:6000 can be played seated at a card table. From that distance (3 feet or less), the ship models are more easily visible than are 1:1200 played on a gymnasium floor (20 feet or so). Note that 1:6000 on a 3-foot square card table is equivalent to 1:2400 on a 7.5-foot square table.

A common issue with 1:6000 is stands, which most people prefer. Some of the better ideas are transparent stands, stands painted the same color as the table, and the the following nicely done hex variation: TMP link
I prefer them without stands, but this requires some additional modelmaking skill:
picture

BTW, the Figurehead range is quite comprehensive for WWII, as you can see from the link for one of the distributors; they even have a special model for the incomplete French BB Jean Bart at Casablanca:
strangecargogames.com/shop

Here is a nice analysis of the line by Rich S.: PDF link

Here are some paint schemes; there are many other such posts:
link
TMP link
TMP link

Nothing is worse than seeing somebody with an expensive GHQ collection that looks like utter crap because they can't paint worth anything.

There is two things worse: seeing expensive GHQ or C-in-C ships that look terrible because the person who assembled them couldn't handle the tiny fiddly bits well (parts glued on crooked or upside down or in the wrong spots), and seeing expensive GHQ or C-in-C ships with gun barrels bent every which way because the owner couldn't be bothered to take a few minutes with a pair of tweezers to straighten them out just before game time.

Me personally, I switched to 1:6000 scale about 15 years ago and haven't regretted the decision.

I use GHQ, CinC, Viking Forge, Superior and Pazerschiffes. I have not had many problems using GHQ, probably because my group have done their own miniatures and know how to handle them. That said I'm making my bases wider than I used to so handling can be done by the base. CinC have more delicate parts(gun barrels especially). The main thing you will notice on the CinC ships are the lack of masts on some of the Battleships(R class for example), however the WWI list have a separate box of masts that can be fitted. Same for life boats. Superior ships are fine but a bit rough looking, very durable. Viking Forge are fairly rugged, but have nice detail, and a great line of merchant vessels and liners. I use Panzerschiffes mainly for destroyers and other smaller craft that nobody else makes. I think you will end up with a mix if you build a very big fleet, so I would suggest choosing them on a ship by ship basis.

I never liked that CinC ignored masts and other fiddly bits, yet still had those fiddly gun barrels. I seriously entertained the notion of replacing the barrels on mine with steel wire before coming to my senses and converting to Panzerschiffe.

Although neither WWII nor 1/2400 (or my preferred scale), for sake of completeness I thought I would mention War Times Journal's 1/3000 predreads. Very crisp lines at a Panzerschiffe level of detailing, almost zero flash.

link

I say, purchase 1:6000 Figurehead ships from Extra Crispy, and then buy your aircraft carrier deck decals from me. :D

link

All kidding aside, the Figurehead stuff may be small, but they look great, and paint up fast. Even the small ships like destroyers are identifiable. Best of all, they're cheap.

Panzerschiffe – Do clean up great with painted details and wire masts added. Short of jumping up an down on them in boots they will survive.Also they offer free ships if you design ones they do not handle, check web site for that info.

Viking Forge for odd units.

CNC hold up great but only loose out on price though comparable with viking.

Superior models are great when you find them. My German H-44 and Montana battleships are great. Very few parts to worry about.

GHQ only when I get them off ebay at a low cost and yes those neat parts come off all the time.

!/6000 not bad for fleet actions and are great to sub for counters from other systems. Normaly all are 2 parts and nice detail, really look at some real close.

1/3000 yea last US maker in this scale was AAA hobbies in NJ went out almost 8 years ago. So import is best you can do.