Rob UK | 12 Oct 2009 9:05 a.m. PST |
Excepting the silver band above the peak
Hourtoulle shows all copper Rousselot plate seems to be all brass Old Osprey shows all brass New Osprey shows one all copper and one copper skull with brass comb. Have yet to check the Eltings! Oh, and Grossegeneralstab seems to show same colour as cuirass
but the image seems to show a brass cuirass! Now could a few uniform experts point me to either the most likely correct helmet colours or a few more examples to confuse the issue further! The joys of painting Napoleonics!! hussarbob1746.webs.com |
Rob UK | 12 Oct 2009 9:25 a.m. PST |
And to further muddy the waters
NYPL seems to show one all brass, one copper skull with silver comb! hussarbob1746.webs.com |
Greystreak | 12 Oct 2009 3:29 p.m. PST |
No expertise claimed, but from sources I own: 1) an 'old Osprey' clearly states "red copper" for officers, and "yellow copper" for the ranks; and, 2) Elting & Knötel, Napoleonic Uniforms Vol. I, Plate 5, clearly shows matching 'red copper' cuirass and helmet (skull & comb parts) on the officer, with 'yellow' metal for other ranks & trumpeters. Given that officer kit was a matter of personal purchase, rather than 'issue', the distinction is not unexpected. |
DELETEDNAME1 | 12 Oct 2009 3:33 p.m. PST |
You can see (and even bid on) one – it the Drouot catalog for the de Maigret. See Lot 336. Price is not too too bad, even at 30 000 € – they were going twice that a while ago. Nice looking, perhaps not too much "restored". If you write to Drouot, they will send you detail photos. link From Museums : picture picture picture Contemporary images picture picture picture picture Frayer |
Camcleod | 13 Oct 2009 9:30 a.m. PST |
From the Musee de l'Armee – all brass link link |
Rob UK | 13 Oct 2009 10:04 a.m. PST |
And the waters get cloudier and cloudier!! Thanks for the responses
..maybe I should try and get a poll started and just go for a concensus of opinion! hussarbob1746.webs.com |
Widowson | 13 Oct 2009 10:51 a.m. PST |
It may be worthy of note that, in the Napoleonic era, brass had a reddish tinge to it. That is, it had a high copper content. So we are confronted with a matter of terminology. Osprey shows no difference in color between troopers and officers, and some of the links above back this up. Other sources, however, indicate a redder color to the officers' armor. I guess the jury is still out. I would expect that the photos from the French museum would be definitive, but my screen is not good enough to say whether or not they are the same. Can anyone with better machines give an impression? |
colbert | 13 Oct 2009 12:04 p.m. PST |
Widowson, I think the Osprey book does show a difference in colour between trooper & officer. link Regards, |
Yves Martin | 13 Oct 2009 2:34 p.m. PST |
Officer cuirass and helmet were really "red" in this up and coming auction of a large collection, you can see an officer's helmet (red) and a selection of cuirasses for troopers (yellow) link Oh, and by the way quite a nice few other things at very cheap prices :=) YM |
Supercilius Maximus | 14 Oct 2009 4:32 a.m. PST |
Interesting that none of the officers' helmets have the additional red cuirassier-style horsehair "mane" that the new Osprey book shows being worn attached to the base of the crest. |
Rob UK | 14 Oct 2009 11:43 a.m. PST |
Thanks for all the great links everyone. I will have to simply go for something that I consider most pleasing to my eye! Probably copper all over. hussarbob1746.webs.com |
Yves Martin | 17 Oct 2009 4:05 a.m. PST |
The red horse hair mane at the bottom tip of the crest is actually well documented, although there are no surviving examples it seems. the main primary source for this is the painting of general Lariboisiere and his son- the latter being a juniro officier of carabiniers killed at Borodino – the painting, dated 1813-1814 clearly shows this. Technically, this mane helped balance the helmet and steady it on the head. the other primary source is the Marckholsheim manuscript of which there is at least 2 quality copies, one being in the Brown collection – this shows an officer on parade in Germany in early 1812 The "camp de dresde" manuscript does not show this and is dated 1813 – it may be that this was worn initially and especially on parades. I hope this helps. All the best YM |
von Winterfeldt | 17 Oct 2009 5:06 a.m. PST |
some really interesting sources, especially lot 30 about the Guard. |
DELETEDNAME1 | 18 Oct 2009 9:48 p.m. PST |
The painting of general Lariboisière and his son is at the last of the links given in my prior post. Yves, "it may be that this was worn
especially on parades" Do you propose that the "mane" was detachable? Or that officers equipped themselves with two casques, one for parade (with it) and one for daily wear (without) ? There is a similar arrangement for the Paris or élite gendarmes à cheval during the 1st restoration and Cent Jours, if I am not mistaken. Were there others? The "restoration" casques of the 1èr chasseurs à cheval? The chevau-légers lanciers? Allied units? Merci d'avance, et bien amicalement, Frayer |
Chouan | 19 Oct 2009 5:28 a.m. PST |
For Geberal Laboisiere et Fils, see: link |
Yves Martin | 21 Oct 2009 12:05 p.m. PST |
Yes – the mane is / was detachable The Gendarmerie des Chasses indeed wore a crested helment with mane and so did one of the musketeer units (I believe 2nd) of the 1st restoration in terms of crested helmets oyu have the chevau-légers lanciers, the 1st Chasseurs but also some oddities like the trumpets of the Ecole de St Germain, some of the cuirassier generals etc. all at the end is a question of fashion sometimes
YM |
DELETEDNAME1 | 21 Oct 2009 5:57 p.m. PST |
Yves, Thank you – very interesting ! Frayer |
wayneempire | 15 Nov 2009 7:12 p.m. PST |
Dear Forum, Only have one question on the French Heavy cavalry regiments, the French Carabiniers(1st & 2nd Regts,)
.at the time of "The Battle of Wagram"(July, 1809), would the carabiniers have already made the uniform transition to the brass cuirasses and the "Roman helmets", as opposed to wearing the bearskins, as they also wore, perhaps before Wagram. Came across information that it was in 1809, that Napoleon made this change in the carabiniers, but a specific month in 1809, that the change occurred, wasn't disclosed! I haven't purchased these unpainted regiments as yet
..would like to field the correct uniformed regiments, as of July, 1809. Thank you, in advance of reading all of your replies! Wayne
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Yves Martin | 16 Nov 2009 11:33 a.m. PST |
This one is easy to answer
the decision to move to helmets & cuirass came at the end of the year as a result of the terrible wounds inflicetd on the carabiniers during the 1809 campaign. even then it took over a year to implement and there were all kinds of weird mixes seemingly (like cuirass + bearskin for trumpeters). we also have graphic evidence as at least one carabinier officer pictured himself in a well known watercolor in the dress he wore charging at Wagram where he lost a leg The ONLY change made during the campaign was to add chinscales to the bearskins after the battle of regensburg – there the bearskins would fall off too easily and the men would suffer from severe cuts by the ennemy By Wagram all carabiniers had chinscales and indeed we have both this watercolor and a nice watercolor by Kobell to testify that. The campaign dress seems to have been a blue surtout, off white or gray riding pants and bearskin with or without plume These and other pictures will be in my upcoming volume on "The Carabiniers" to be published prior to XMas by LCV Services in France :=) All the best YM |
Supercilius Maximus | 17 Nov 2009 10:00 a.m. PST |
YM, 1) Can you post again on this thread – or a new one – when the book is available (and if on sale in the UK), as I would certainly like to buy it. Is it in English or French? 2) The new Osprey MAA on the Carabiniers shows a painting (not contemporary) of a trooper c.1802/3 in the "old" uniform, but wearing a cuirass. Do you know how widespread this was – eg one or both regiments, front rank only? SM |
Yves Martin | 17 Nov 2009 1:45 p.m. PST |
link: link hope it works yes – during the consulat periods, the carabiniers on the rhine were supplied with cuirasses – how widespread this is we do not know. Likewise early during the revolution, the carabiniers used standrad infantry coats and bearskins with plates. The cuirasses were certainly not worn in 1805
actually the carabiniers hated the cuirass at first as they thought it would make the arly think they were not as brave as they claimed ! YM |
Supercilius Maximus | 17 Nov 2009 3:17 p.m. PST |
Thank you – the link worked fine and it looks like a very beautiful product. |