"Musketeer Miniatures again !" Topic

Since the most recent post of the previous thread was four days ago ( TMP link ) , I'll start again.

In that thread it is clear that lots of people are waiting for their figures, have mailed several times, and did not receive any response. Also in this thread Mike ( who obviously is in contact with Bill ) tells us that Bill is very busy and hopes to clear up things very soon.
Let me comment on that.

1. I have ordered through PayPal a number of figures. Since this is PayPal, I also immediately paid for them. Date: august 26th.

2. Since I have not received the goods, I read the Forum ( the website is unchanged and does not give any information ) and discover Bill's problems. I write a very friendly mail asking about my order ( September 28th ) . No response.

3. I write a reminder – including a copy of the previous mail to a different mail address ( there is "sales@" and "bill@" ) . No response.

4. I notice that Bill DOES post on the Forum ( ! ) , so I register especially to be able to communicate at last ( WHERE IS BILL ? ) , including my mail address of course.

5. I receive a PM by Mike through the Forum – NOT to my mail address – that Bill is very busy and hardly ever on Internet, this being the reason of not answering mails. If I give the order number he could check whether or not the goods have been sent.

6. I have responded that posting on a Forum should not go before answering mails of customers. Furthermore there are now three equal communications, all containing the complete PayPal-information, so sending some order number ( ? ) a fourth time will not really be helpful.

Since the fatal time limit of 45 days is almost expired, I have lodged a complaint with PayPal in order to get my money back ( PayPal does not accept a complaint after 45 days ) .

All this could have been averted if a. the obviously changed circumstances in handling orders ( I do not need to know about personal matters, just explaining that there is trouble and "we are working on it, you will hear as soon as possible" ) would be enough and/or b. answering customers mails had happened instead of gayly discussing in a Forum.

Although I still love the figures and would have liked to buy them, I do not trust Musketeer enough anymore to simply order though Internet. If this is namecalling: so be it.

I damn glad that I don't run a one man business dedicated to producing supplies for a niche market occupied mostly by individuals who don't give a about my personal circumstances as long has they get their toys ASAP.

You may wish to review the last post on the thread you linked to, and reflect. I hope all your life's problem's are small ones, some of us aren't that lucky

I know only what I've read on here, but the bloke has lost his home, wife, family and business premises. Been there, done that, apart from the business. I'd have been inclined to tell you to go yourself if you had come chasing me for a bunch of toy soldiers.

The grown up thing to do would be to quietly pursue a refund via PayPal instead of starting another 'look at me, I've been robbed' thread.

I get tired of these witch hunts – the Figures in Comfort farrago was another recent one. It's about time The Editor put a stop to them.

I think that Bill is doing everything he can, considering the circumstances.
As far as I am concerned, I contacted Mike who, immediately and very kindly, phoned Bill. Mike told me that my order would be posted before the end of the week and it was done.
So I don't see any reason to complain.
And I would like to thank again Mike for his help and say that I sincerely hope that Bill will soon get out of all his troubles.
And I shall keep buying from him without any misgiving.

I think Bill has had a lucky escape if you are not going to buy from him again.

phicks 1 I totaly agree with you.

I am flabbergasted to read those comments. Is it so difficult to see my point ? Of course it is horrible what has happened. I do not criticize the fact that there was no time for sending my figures, I criticize the fact that I (and many others) in no way at all were being informed BUT HE STILL HAD TIME TO POST ON SOME FORUM !

Connard Sage: doing business is accepting a responsibility to customers. If you are not able to at least change a website to inform your customers after a period of six weeks (instead of doing things you like better) you are not responsible enough. End of story. And my comment was not "look at me, I'm being robbed" – I wonder if you have even read my post ! I cannot but feel that your personal experiences have coloured your view of my text. So I invite you to be honest and really read what I have written !

General Humbert: "I contacted Mike". Please tell me how….
I had to join the Forum especially to establish contact. What should one do when no one answers ?

It is beginning to seem like these smaller companies should have some sort of central "controller". Since so many of them, Musketeer, Immortal and others are "one man bands", they obviously need help in staying organized and abreast of communications and updating.

What?

Don't you lot figure it? Nothing at all wrong with Musketeer until Bill has to move his entire life and restart it some 200 miles North. Give the guy a break.

central Controller indeed.

So Musketeer has had a 'lucky escape' if Porthos doesn't buy from him again? This is a customer who pays his hard earned money, gets nothing for weeks and does all the running to make contact with Musketeer. FFS – is it too much to ask for a little bit of communication? I think Porthos is the one who has had a lucky escape and that Musketeer should go and find another line of work.

Whats worse is that despite all his efforts Porthos finds out Musketeers got time to attend shows (Derby) because he likes doing that part of his business but is too fragile to send his order out?

These comments typify the 'you should be grateful they are in business' approach that is the prevailant attitude these days amongst small one man band figure companies. I beg to differ – they should be grateful for the custom that enables them to do what they love doing (sculpting).

In addition, I personally don't give a flying **** whats going on in these peoples lives. This may sound harsh but I'm not buying minis off these people to be their friends. Its a business. I don't need to know that the guy in Tescos is having personal problems when I get my weekly shop so why should I care when buying minis? One terrain manufacturer regularly used to trot out some excuse as to why he'd not produced anything new for months (cats died etc). If he is happy to lose business then so be it.

Another excuse is 'I've got a busy day job'. I don't care. If you've set a business up and haven't got enough time then maybe you shouldn't have set up the business in the first place. If you go under – so be it. There are plenty of other companies out there where I can spend my money and plenty of other hobbies where I can spend my money.

I see this and the other thread about Mongrel Miniatures as yet another example of poor or even non existent communication being excused and accepted. I wouldn't put up with it on the high street so why should I put up with it in relation to my hobby spending.

Thanks for posting this Porthos- if it weren't for posts like these we would have no way of judging the risk of dealing with smaller manufacturers. While everyone is quick to jump down the throat of the person who posts them, if no one posted them we would have no basis for trusting any of the smaller producers. Because I know someone will gripe if they are being ripped off, I can order from a smaller company knowing that they are on the level.

So while this thread sucks for Musketeer, and I feel for the owner, if it didn't exist a large number of us wouldn't trust any one-man shop, and all the small manufacturers would suffer.

Rich

Disclaimer – I've bought figures from Musketeer Miniatures in the past and had an excellent service. I intend to buy more in the future

I'm a GP – Most days I see people whose lives get shattered by awful events. In these circumstances most people struggle to function on a basic level and sometimes for many,things can get really desperate. Most of us who never have to face these things don't have the slightest understanding of the enormity of its effect. Things we take for granted like eating, sleeping or going out can be insurmountable let alone doing any work. There are a myriad of emotions to deal with and things can spiral out of control usually because people don't have the capacity or wellness to get control or because they depend on external factors in the control of others. People going through this sort of stuff quite simply have a torrid time and do not function well, the anxiety generated can be overwhelming. Sometimes people just have to batten down the hatches and prioritise, using what emotional energy they have left to get by on a daily basis. Sometimes businesses fail because of this.
In plain English – @ Porthos what seems simple enough to you may be too much to ask at the moment. Please note those suffering have a hard enough time dealing with their own feelings and external pressure from others just makes it even more difficult. By all means lodge your paypal dispute so you don't end up out of pocket but for god's sake don't pile on even more pressue with nonsense like the above. Just think about it, is it likely to help the situation?

VP you may not give a flying **** about what goes on in people's lives – that's a matter for you – but would you draw attention to the guy at Tesco's problems for all to see and add to his discomfort?

I'm not familiar with Bill's individual circumstances but its clearly good to see a good friend like Mike supporting him through a difficult time. Hopefully in time, maybe 2 steps forward and 1 backwards even, things will improve and get easier for Bill.
In the meantime and this applies to the FIC threads aswell- thought for the day: – "why add to the problem"

Isn't it all about communication though? Surely this thread would never have even started if an email had been sent in the beginning explaining the situation. I have put up with some very slow orders with other figure companies because they told me what was going on and it seemed only reasonable to wait. Indeed the number of times I've seen announcements on this forum explaining that x will be out of business for a few weeks due to personal circumstances shows that this usually works.

The mantra of a small business has got to be good, attentive customer service and keep communicating with your customers.

Ah, now there's an event you see very often – von Paulus giving us all the benefit of his vitriolic passion for telling everyone else how things should be run.

And my comment was not "look at me, I'm being robbed" – I wonder if you have even read my post ! I cannot but feel that your personal experiences have coloured your view of my text. So I invite you to be honest and really read what I have written !

I read it chap. Twice. I even understood it, yay me.

I invite you to read again what I have written, along with valleyboy's comments.

Very well put Valley Boy

Usually I'd agree with Valley Boy, but if you can post to a forum, you can answer e-mails.

Sooner or later, if you wish to stay in business, you need to exhibit a basic level of professionalism.

If you can't to that temporarily because of a family crisis, stop taking peoples' money.

Valleyboy : You have it SO spot on.

Von Paulus : Ya need a life buddy.

and there's another event I see very often – the mates of said one man band jumping on a customer for daring to criticise bad service. I saw it with the Mongrel yahoo group earlier in the year where I was accused of being an impatient child for daring to criticise a company that had released nowt but promises for the best half of two years (with no communication). As General Monty said – a little communication goes a long way.

As to the GP – if I get bad service in shops on the high street then I complain to the management and don't shop there again if necessary. In the current climate where people are losing their jobs its more important than ever to maintain your professionalism at work (no matter whats going on in your personal life). Thats the real world though!

I see nothing wrong with showing vitriolic passion when it comes to bad customer service.

Oh and thanks for posting Porthos!

It's NOT bad service, it's unfortunate circumstances in a human being's life. Are you suggesting he does it on purpose ?

"if I get bad service in shops on the high street then I complain to the management and don't shop there again if necessary"

So, if you come across a grumpy checkout girl/boy in Sainsbury you don't shop there again ? If that's the case where do you get your groceries ? There's a grumpy checkout girl/boy in EVERY supermarket – probably because of petty customers like you.

I have had an order pending with Musketeer for several months now. While I understand how devestatigng a seperation/divorce can be, he took the money, now he needs to send me the figures or refund the money. I have to say I agree with the comment: if he can attend a trade show, he can ship out orders.

Well said VB. Some people do need to get a sense of proportion.

Actually, whilst thinking about this, Chieftain is right in one way. Passion for the hobby is one thing – vitriol is something else. Apologies for the negative vitriol.

I still think Porthos has a right to raise his concerns and whats the point in having a consumer affairs message board if people can't raise bad service without getting shouted down? However, maybe I am coming across as being too harsh. I don't know the chap and I'm being honest in saying it has no bearing on my life. I could offer false sympathy to the guy but its meaningless.

On saying that – you get people saying 'get a sense of proportion'. Thats also unfair. Porthos may work hard for his cash and may do an extremely difficult job to earn that money. Maybe Porthos is going through difficult times as well and didn't need to be chasing round trying to get his money back?

Also the GP said 'why add to the problem'? Why not warn people that there are issues at Musketeer at the moment? If Musketeer isn't getting the info out there then at least this thread is?

Overall customer service is an issue in this hobby but maybe for another thread.

Hi Von Paulus, we have I think spoken many times at shows, if I have the right face to the right name:). We both have a real passion for the hobby but I have to disagree with some of your points. The reason I have taken a different view to your self over Porthos is that on Bill's own forum (which he has not posted on recently) he was offered help from a very close friend of Bill. It might have been that English is not his first language but he came across as very rude to the one person that could have helped both Porthos and Bill in the matter.

Now I do agree with you on the point that a lot of this could be solved if more information was available on the website. But with a limited web access it has been tricky for Bill to post information.

I also look forward to seeing you at shows in the future.

If you are in business then you must act like a business, that is to say if you take someones money, then you must supply the goods in a reasonable time. If problems are occuring which prevent you doing this, then you must inform the customer, or stop taking orders that you cant fulfill.

I have had problems with figures in comfort in that I paid him over 12 months ago and still have received nothing in return. I realise he is ill, and i wish him all the best for a speedy recovery, but he still has my money. According to a few people on this post, that is all right and i shouldnt moan about it, well im sorry,, i own a business and its tough at the moment and that is my very hard earned money he has, a little communication is not a lot to ask for.

I would hazard a guess that Bill is just as frustrated by the situation as those waiting for their figures. Especially if his reputation and integrity is going to be called into question on here.

I imagine that trying to run a mostly internet based business without proper, regular internet access is extremely dificult. And that in addition to the upheaval in his personal life.

There was a statement on the Musketeer forum at the end of August explaining the situation, and letting people know that normal service would be resumed as and when. Knowing Bill to be a good, honest bloke in a cut throat world, that would be enough for me. But maybe I'm just a bit more tolerant and patient than some.

The problem with posting on a public forum, especially when one of the concerned parties cannot respond, is that it very quickly turns into a bar brawl of misinterpretation, language barriers, and especially on TMP, timezones.

Whilst the US is coming home on a Friday evening after work, us Brits are on the third glass of red, sleeves rolled up, knocking great lumps out of each other.

It's not a good reflection of any concerned.

It suppose it could be noted that it's a measure of Bill's character and integrity that he's got so many people prepared to stick up for him when a thread turns to a witchhunt based on a hearsay.

I am glad to notice support. Again: Bill's problems were only shown to me after reading the Forum (pure by accident, BTW – I was looking for possible new figures). I normally do not read Forums of manufacturers. So I immediately decided to write a friendly mail instead of a harsh one (this is September 28th). Do not forget that a normal situation (package doesn't arrive within a normal time limit)someone has to take steps to claim from the Post Office. What is more normal than to sent a mail: "Can you check whether or not a parcel has been sent ?". Furthermore there is a difference between ordering through PayPal (as in this case) and ordering with credit card. Since the card only is charged when the parcel is sent, there is no risk for the buyer. Again: I asked for information, not "I don't care what happened, I want my figures !"

Connard Sage: I still do not understand your point. May I assume that after your sad experience you took to bed for six weeks without taking care of your business ?

Valleyboy: "In plain English – @ Porthos what seems simple enough to you may be too much to ask at the moment. Please note those suffering have a hard enough time dealing with their own feelings and external pressure from others just makes it even more difficult. By all means lodge your paypal dispute so you don't end up out of pocket but for god's sake don't pile on even more pressue with nonsense like the above. Just think about it, is it likely to help the situation?"

If this was true of course I would not have been so harsh. However, you seem to forget that there IS activity: posting on Forum, even attending shows. So I do NOT believe this "suffering" part. And THAT (the not believing) is the reason for my action.

I noticed incidentally that there is still a thundering silence from Musketeer.

phicks1: ""The reason I have taken a different view to your self over Porthos is that on Bill's own forum (which he has not posted on recently) he was offered help from a very close friend of Bill. It might have been that English is not his first language but he came across as very rude to the one person that could have helped both Porthos and Bill in the matter."

Indeed English is not my first language. And I am dealing with a company. How can I take serious an offer for help from someone I have no idea what his contact with the company is, and furthermore asks for something the company already has received three times ?

Ookmeister: "I would hazard a guess that Bill is just as frustrated by the situation as those waiting for their figures. Especially if his reputation and integrity is going to be called into question on here."

I quite agree and I am probably as frustrated. But he simply started this problem by NOT taking the time (5 minutes or so ?)to put some information on his website. A Forum, after all, is only used by the inner crowd (all those people that now seem to fall over me) and as I said I (and probably lots of other people) never read Fora.

Chieftain: "It suppose it could be noted that it's a measure of Bill's character and integrity that he's got so many people prepared to stick up for him when a thread turns to a witchhunt based on a hearsay."

Do you really think that my complaint is a witchhunt based on hearsay ?

Reason being is that Musketeer has no internet access at the moment because of his move and why Mike offered to pass on your comments. Also the last time Bill was able to post on his forum was on the 6th September.

I'm sure we have got off on the wrong foot and would gladly Porthos buy you a beer at the Crisis show if you will be attending.

Porthos – not at all.

Indeed, I raised no comment against your issues. Mine was a reference to those who have no involvement or direct experience of your issue but are simply content to shout loudly about how they think things should be done.

All

just to let you know I have spoken to Bill and he has started to get some basic internet service so he is currently going through the 1000+ email he has whilst making sure all mail order is processed as quickly as he can.

I'm sure that everyone who is waiting for information or their order will recieve an update soon as Bill gets to the emails.

Ayup Mr Hicks. You've got the right person. Its always good to see you at the shows but its even better when there is something you've sculpted there as well!

Theres a right way and a wrong way to complain. Being rude and aggressive gets you nowhere. However if Porthos has tried to get his complaint sorted out and got nowhere then maybe he thought he had nowt to lose?

Witch hunt based on hearsay or a valid thread on a customer affairs board?

Either way, if Porthos has got his money back, has made his point and the olive branch has been offered then maybe its time to bury this thread?

I will go even further: if indeed there is contact it is only fair to report that too.
Mr Hicks: I did not realize you were phicks – but I am glad with your latest post. I gladly accept your invitation for a beer during CRIS on one condition: you'll accept me returning the favor !
BTW: I noticed on the Forum a thread with initiator (?) Bill. It was dated October 8th. So of course I assumed this was the last of his posts. Furthermore it seemed logical to me that someone who is administrator of the Forum also has acces to all other things, like sites and mail addresses. But perhaps I do not understand tose things thoroughly (for me Internet is just a tool and nothing interesting).

Porthos I have just replied to you via email with the latest news from Bill about your order

Mike

Writing as a one-man band that has suffered trying personal circumstances for the past year (wife with leukaemia) can I just offer the following advice:

If you have time for just one email, tell TMP Editor Bill Armintrout the exact details of your circumstances so he can quickly post a response to any "customer service" issues raised in the forums.

If you can access your website, put an appropriate message on the Contacts page, and, if you can, put a note about your circumstances in any standard email from the shop that goes out to confirm orders. That way customers are automatically informed. Do it from a public library computer if necessary.

I did all the above. There are still customers who don't read shop emails or website notices, and while I have no doubt offended a few, and my traditional mail order sucks, by and large I think I've survived an appalling year and kept the business going with minimal negative feedback.

A year on, and with things improving, I am a very changed person. I run on self-created rails and am easily thrown off them. Bill of Musketeer has my every sympathy, as does Jules at Figures in Comfort. They could undoubtedly have managed things better from some people's perspectives, but I'm sure they're now far wiser.

Ian

I'm sorry to hear Bill is having a tough time recently, I hope things work out well for him, he makes a quality product and seems to be a generally good guy.

When he's back on his feet, and I'm sure he will, I'll go back to bugging him about finishing the GNW range.

>>>When he's back on his feet, and I'm sure he will, I'll go back to bugging him about finishing the GNW range.<<<

Same here, especially about the tough times.

Fighting 15s offered some very sound advice which will (would have) mitigate such unpleasant scenarios as this thread so clearly spotlights.

I don't have a dog in this fight, however I have to observe that TMP:ers seem to be a very fickle crowd when it comes to this matter. There seems to be a lot of sympathy for Muskeeter, yet if I recall correctly, people had no problems with posting all sorts of negative comments about Hotz Mats and their notorious problems with delivery times. How come the attitude can be some different on same issue with two different companies?

There are some very neat figures on the Musketeer site that I would like to acquire. Can someone tell me how to do this? Thanks

Bob Brigade Games stock Musketeer in the US.

Minondas – without wishing to reignite this whole sorry debate again – I think its got something to do with how many friends you've got who are prepared to come on here and defend you no matter what. Sometimes you are not aware of who knows who in this hobby and the little cliques that exist.

Also, as this thread shows, it all comes down to communication. Sometimes, despite health problems and personal loss (death), the owner of a company makes an effort to let his customers know there is a problem. In those cases I have every sympathy and it shows that your custom is valued. Its all down to communication.

So I orderred some nice Christmas presents for myself then eh? Well then guess it pays to read the forums, still when I get them I hope I still have an interest in VBCW. Either way those BUFs will represent pain to someone on some board

I havnt spent much time on this forum but have to say im a little shocked.

Von Paulus initial post seemed reasonable to me. Then a bunch of fanboys jump on the guy.

If you accept someone money you have an obligation to them. I know this is a small business but it is still a real business and real money. If you cant deliver goods or even communicate then why are you still accepting orders?

This just sounds insane to me.

Porthos

Ignore a vocal minority. Thank you for the post.
I hope Bill gets back on his feet.

Joe

I have come to realize that some of the problem is that the Musketeer Miniatures website remained up and running while the owner was experiences some delays in service. People ordered from the site, not from the person. Perhaps owners should put messages on their site or close the site during transition periods.

Producers of off main line figures are doing the gaming community a great favor. Of course once they set up a business relationship with buyers, they need to deliver. But what's the rush. If there were no such useful figures you would find something else to buy. I have decided to be patient and hope that the owner will overcome all the negativity and eventually get back to do us all a favor by producing the figures again.

At 'Smoggcon' in Middlesbrough last Saturday I walked past an empty trestle where the Musketeer stall was meant to be. Musketeer was on the printed show hand out – but missing again. I had gone solely to buy from him. How to make friends and influence people..?

"How to make friends and influence people..?"
Indeed.
I promised to post some result – since Thornhill refuses to answer mail (at least my mails) I had to post on the Musketeer Forum. This unfortunately only seems to be read and followed by fanboys, the rest obviously have already left.

Thornhill posted an utterly inadequate reaction, stating that saying "sorry" (twice, no less !) should be enough for almost two months silence after taking my money. (Two months not being "some delays", Bob, I'm afraid).

Exasperated I have left the Musketeer forum. I have Thornhill experienced as someone who does not seem to be too interested in customers who do not want to be fanboys. I do hope calling him "an arrogant p…k" does not land me in the Dawghouse because that would mean an injustice after those insults. After all I only mean to warn people to be careful before they advance their money to Musketeer !

Is there a similar problem again?

I ordered on the 2nd of March 2010, payment through paypall on the 3rd, have not received anything (26 March, i.e. 12 weeks later) and all attempts to contact Bill have been unsuccessfull!

Can anyone help?

Marius Bester
Pretoria
South Africa