"General history question: Why did Spain decline?" Topic

Spain was the dominant European power in the Sixteenth Century and a force to be reckoned with in the early Seventeenth.

However, by Napoleon's time, she is basically toast.

Did it all start falling apart after Rocroi? Or is this all just Alatriste nonsense?

When did it all go wrong for the Dons and what caused it?

The many reasons are woven into the Alatriste books that I have read. The author brilliantly alludes to the economic, social, religious and military problems that brought Spain down.

Economic story (over simplified): flood of gold and silver from the new world paid for government and military, allowed clergy and aristocracy to keep merchants down (and deport Jewish & Muslim merchants). Spanish trade and industry suffered. The flood of gold and silver led to massive inflation. Under Phillip II, Spain had several bankruptcies. The gold and silver ended up going to England, the Netherlands and other enemies to pay for their goods, made so much more cheaply than any in Spain.

Do that for a century or so and you wake up with a hell of a hangover. And the gold and silver is gone…

An over-ambitious (and ultimately not very successful) foreign policy coupled with a stagnated internal economy, with a healthy dash of government corruption.

Pick any or all.(Hint: it's by no means confined to just these)

Corrupt and venal system of colonial power.

Getting the crap kicked out of their navy by the Dutch, then the British, then the British again and again etc etc.

Louis XIV as neighbour.

Carlos the Bewitched as king and the total decline of Spain's military. In fact Loony Royals in general. Goya didn't paint them that way just for the fun of it. Inbreeding is so harsh on the gene pool.

The loss of the Spanish Netherlands. (plusses and minuses here but on balance a minus)

The real cruncher comes though when the monopolistic control of import/export to and from the American colonies starts to take place. By and large this really kicks off after the period in question but it's seeds are there from the 1760s on.

Paella.

Afternoon siestas.

Perhaps there's something in the paella argument. That's a favorite of mine, and I'm nowhere close to being a rising world power.

A country with a governmental system better suited to the 14th century than the 17th had an ego trip for a while and then reality kicked in.

Pretty much what they said, but also because of the flood of cash, they began purchasing luxury items in other countries, thus reducing their own economy. When the cash stopped coming in, they didn't have any in the bank (or the country for that matter). And, yes, I do understand that this is somewhat of a simplification, but that was a fiar portion of the decline.

In the end it was a VAT issue

Poor infrastructure. Too many enemies at once. Corruption. Kings that wanted to Micro-manage followed by kings who didn't want to be involved.

Well reading about the SCW in the 30's the reasons for Spains decline were many--
Inbreeding and rubbish Kings/Queens
Feudal society where half the people didn't work and the other half didn't eat
Mismanagement of the Empire--Using an essentially medieval system to run a modern worldwide empire.
Repeated wars of religion (against Holland/England) and losing them!
While having an overseas empire by the 18th Century they were lacking a decent fleet--Essentially due to mismanagement..

Lots of different reasons which culminated in the Spanish Civil War in 36-39 with a huge bloodletting……….

On the plus side they were one of the few nations never to be fully conquered right?

Yes the decline was real but they remained pretty significant just like to ottomans.

If they were that useless why was there such a fuss about the succession in 1700?

Yep!

Hi

Well, and a little more. The idea that Castillians were "more equal" than other spanish, and the only full citizens. That a lot of policies were driven by the Franciscans who had goals other than the good of the empire. That there really wasn't, in the modern sense, a idea of "nation" here, but an empire.

And on.

Rocky

With the death of Charles V? It was all pretty much downhill from there.

Archstanton, in return for being named protector of the faith, Charles V, IIRC, (or Philip – can't remember which right off) pledged to use the fortune of the country to fight religious heresy (i.e., protestantism). So…the religious wars became the raison d'etre of the national wealth. To keep his title from the pope, he, of course, couldn't let a little thing like losing stop him from pursuing them…

"On the plus side they were one of the few nations never to be fully conquered right?"

I'm not sure Spain regarded itself as a 'nation' until very late in the nineteenth century. Some bits still don't think they are part of Spain, which is why they speak different languagues in them. Franco took a bit of a dim view of this.

Hey RockyRusso – are you sure you mean 'Franciscans'? Wasn't it the Jesuits who dominated the royal family?

"If they were that useless why was there such a fuss about the succession in 1700?"

Location.

They stole all the money in the world, but they did't know what anything was worth! They could not keep accurate financial records , so one day they were broke and didn't have anything to show for it, so they started killing each other for stupid reasons, until the only ones left all agreed with Franco and invited the rest of the world to become tourists to Spain ( and Portugal!

That's probably too simplistic!!!

"Location."

Both Queen Anne and later, George III had plans to relieve overcrowding by sending a large section of Britain's underclass on holiday in Spain. They were frustrated in this but with the able assistance of Freddy Laker and Ryan Air, thse plans have finally come to fruition. Oddly enough, Britain's triumph has come at a time of great prosperity for the Spanish people.

Both Queen Anne and later, George III had plans to relieve overcrowding by sending a large section of Britain's underclass on holiday in Spain. They were frustrated in this but with the able assistance of Freddy Laker and Ryan Air, thse plans have finally come to fruition.

Gracia de Dios! It's only a matter of time before someone – undoubtedly an English poster! – starts talking about "football" and the respective English and Spanish national teams. And then it will be jokes about paella and fish and chips.

Short answer – the strain on the economy caused by the Dutch revolt and the nasty Habsburg habit of always being at war with Protestant powers. Too much money being spent fighting wars against entire populations.

After Charles V split the empire between 'Spain' and 'Austria', the King of Spain was only effectively king of Castile, whose financial resources he therefore could tap more easily. His relationship to other parts of his domain, Holland, Italy, Valencia was a bit more loosey-goosey and trying to squeeze money from the local powers, whose powers were guaranteed by the crown, was a bit more fraught. For instance, the loyal Hollanders were reluctant to see their hard earned ducats go to pay for galleys in the Med. And so forth. And as noted above, the Spanish crown had political and military committments across Europe and eventually the whole world. Something that has been called strategic overreach. Ossification of the nobility and degeneration of the monarchy lead to the use of 'favorites' to run the country and the related rise of party politics which tend to focus energy inward rather than outward. Coupled with little progress in agriculture and manufacturing, religious intolerance and simple incompetance and well the rest is history.

Got to give them a little credit they did manage to drive out the moors and keep them out for a long time a lot of the new world treasure was used for this and they did it with only token help (if any) from the rest of Europe

Got to give them a little credit they did manage to drive out the moors and keep them out for a long time a lot of the new world treasure was used for this and they did it with only token help (if any) from the rest of Europe

No, the Moors were turfed just before Christoper Columbus discovered America and a generation before Peru and Mexico were conquered.

My understanding is that the Conquest of Granada was just the last small act and that the Moors in Spain had been virtually powerless for a 100 years before.

… and opposing the Ottomans in the Med cost them another fortune.

Mike B

The above seems very reasonable.

One thing that struck me re-reading Oman's Peninsular War is just how bad communications were in Spain and it's lack of any form of manufacturing center. Indeed, the lack of any real form of unifying center.

The dead hand of the church didn't help the Spanish much either. The Enlightenment never really touched Spain – not with the inquisition still enforced. Not being the greatest fan General di Buonaparte I would point out that his puppet regime was a great improvement. It is interesting to note that Franco and his fascists (and Petain and Vichy) gained there support from the Catholic Church.

Hi

John, I ment franciscan.

Among other things, while La Raza insists that the US "stole" the southwest, part of the american story was the that the american southwest was a HUGE economic drain on the empire. That drain was establishing and protecting the missionaries who were saving indian souls in the americas. There was silver in mexico to pay for it, but not in Texas and California.

to the king, the elegant solution was to allow americans who actually wanted the land itself and would pay taxes to "pay" for the conversion. Part of that was not needing presidials to defend the farmers when the farmers were armed americans who could be relied on to kill commache! but assuming that these same guys would be docile subjects.

so, ya, franciscas who pushed the colonization COSTS without economics involved.

Rocky

I'm not sure Spain regarded itself as a 'nation' until very late in the nineteenth century. Some bits still don't think they are part of Spain, which is why they speak different languagues in them. Franco took a bit of a dim view of this.

Very much so. A good friend of ours, who is now in his late 70s, his mother could not speak Castellano, only Catalan. She passed on about 25years ago. She refused to learn it despite Catalan being stamped upon harder than a hacked-off wargamer crushing dice in a vice!!

We arrived in Barcelona a year or so before Franco died, I was 7 at the time. In school we learnt Spanish only, all signs, menus and most radio and TV were in Castellano.

The resulting backlash is huge as everything is now in Catalan and I struggle to understand it when we go for holidays (having moved away when I was 12). In the UK it would be considered rude to chat away in your own language whilst a foriegner is present and you can all comminicate in a third language… Not in Catalunia. Our friends regularly translate what we've just said in Castellano into Catalan, discuss it in Catalan amongst themselves and then turn back to us and reply with their point in Castellano. Bizarre!!

Steve P

That sounds like my experience growing up in a 50/50 Welsh/English speaking family… ;o)

If you want I can send you the bibliography from a class I took in the UofC with Prof. Charles Ingrao on the rise and fall of Spain (among others). send me an email at travlos1@illinois.edu

Hi

KT, in that light, I assume Kavan is on that list, currently in print in paperback and a good though long read.

Rocky