"WF Liberty & Union League - Powered Armour Proposal Update!" Topic

As of today the "Generic Powered Armour Suit" proposal on Wargames Factory's Liberty & Union League is at 93% pre-order commitment! There are a mere 66 sprues remaining for this proposal to hit 100% – which means it goes in the queue for production in 28mm injection moulded plastic!

Here is the proposal:

link

So IIRC the rules of the L&UL, if ten of youse apes sign up for six sprues apiece, we're over the top on this one!

SO C'MON YOU APES!! YA WANNA LIVER FOREVER?!!!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

No, but an eternal spleen is appealing.

Actually, yes.

Gotta say I reckon they are fools if they make this. Ebay is crammed with 2nd hand power armour models and GW pretty much it seems makes nothing but.

I was on that thread for a while, and was really worried about the same things as TRC-- that there's already a ton of GW-style PA.

Much as everyone agreed that they wanted it to be hard sci fi, they kept going back to the GW design. Then they all started speculating on "super-tech" melee weapons and I tuned out.

The Generic PA still doesn't have any design attention from WGF so it'll be a while before we see what it will look like, let alone they produce the figure.

There are some awesome proposals on WGF, but I'm taking a wait and see on this one.

Don't hold your breath. WGF will just up the pre-order level to "Lete verybody have a chance of pre-ordering" Then never do anything with it when it languishes just above the threashold. Just like they did with the sci-fi androids.

G.

I want to see the 6mm androids resolve positively before I commit to anything else. I'm not even sure I want the sprues I pre-ordered (the $1 USD each preorder) by now. We had a picture of what they would look like, they shrunk them, and haven't (that I know) showed what we'd actually get.

andy

Gotta say I reckon they are fools if they make this.

Yup, pretty much. And unlike gothic sci fi there's no one really big game system to bring lots of customers to Starship Troopers style power armoured guys.

Also BlackWidowPilot has been pushing this so heavily that they'd really want to take into consideration just what legs the product would actually have. It's taken this long to get close to 100% with all his relentless arm twisting -- so how well will they actually sell? Enough to make the $10,000 investment in injection molding worthwhile?

"relentless arm twisting"

Really? Where??? I've followed this project from the start (though I havent ordered any). I never felt pressured or spam'd into buying these at TMP or in any other related forum.

"It's taken this long to get close to 100%"

The proposal has been up less than a year and less than 10 products at WF have made it to 100% completion so far. That puts this in about the top 5% of all projects pre-ordered at WF! And I hardly think 3/4 of a year is an inordinate amount of time for a proposed product to reach 1000 pre-sold sprues.

The Power armored suits and WF will both do just fine w/out all of your Nancy-nay-sayers' support! (or lack there of).

The Power armored suits and WF will both do just fine w/out all of your Nancy-nay-sayers' support! (or lack there of).

You and BWP are the most *enthusiastic* and conspicuously *vocal* WGF L&UL advocates on TMP (or possibly anywhere). You're not doing yourselves any favors with the attitude.

Personally I've seen so many topics on L&UL submissions that I'm getting sick of the concept. This is not a dig on WGF. I've met the guys and they're good folks. I just would prefer, rather than L&UL spam from a vocal minority of the customer base, to simply see what new products are produced, weigh them on their individual merits, and spend accordingly.

Really? Where???

Here???

Take a look at the thread he posted on this very forum when he first put it up, where about half of the posts are from him. "Ok, we're up to 47% -- we need more orders!!!"

Though this is not a surprise coming from you, someone who posts L&UL proposals up and down the board every time he gets it in his head that he wants a new model. I think that in concept the L&UL is a rather nice idea, but it's been diluted by its overenthusiastic cheerleaders and now it's not uncommon for proposals to draw a collective eyeroll, through no fault of WF I hasten to add. It's the perils of the web, to paraphrase 40k.

Goldwyrm said it right.

I've never voted on any L & UL proposal because they've never suggested anything I might want in plastic. I guess I am a minority in that I'm pretty happy with all the models that are already out there in metal, and I have enough dough to not need a cheap way to build armies. Good luck with your "wish list", though!

I do get pretty tired of the constant announcements of things people want votes for…

Gee, interesting responses. Seems some people gets bent when someone wants something that they don't want. Sure it gets a little old seeing all the ideas that have no interest to me but it's like GW (who I despise/loathe with an irrational intensity) or Chicago Cubs fans. Some misguided people enjoy GW and/or Cubs, so let them.

I suggest you don't read the ing threads if they upset you or don't interest you. I have the majority of the periods blocked here on TMP because… they don't interest me. Others love Ancients, VSF, Gothic future games, and other forms of fiction. I say let them indulge in their pleasures. Ditto BWP. I enjoy Zorro which is definitely anathema to some…

Yes, I have committed to sprues. I wait to see if anything develops from the effort. If so, great. If not, still great. No way as irritating as other subjects on TMP.

Gracias,

Glenn

Edit: minor word changes for clarity.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY want WGF to succeed. I think that, like Eureka's 100 and 300 clubs, this is a great chance to engage with customers.

I don't know what the fixed cost of a new injection-molded sprue is, but I hope that they are covering their fixed costs (including labor, etc) with the pre-orders. Ideally, this system lets them off-load their demand risks and lets us benefit from their low per-unit costs.

The company also have to think about IP. I worry that some people are pre-ordering what they think will be cheap not-space marines. WGF will rightly produce something cool but different. So then when the drawings come out will all those pre-orders really turn into purchases? 28mm medieval-style PA is about as saturated a market as you can find in gaming.

With that said, I do think that they have to be careful that they don't mistake INTENSITY of interest for BREADTH of interest. A couple dozen really fired up enthusiasts won't support a product line on their own, and they'll kill the goose that laid the golden egg if they try. The cheerleading is fine by me-- viral marketing is great for everyone, as long as people who make submissions are realistic about what kind of market is out there. I definitely don't have any beef with the people posting to TMP and elsewhere keeping people up to date. Apart from a few spammers who keep their threads bumped, even the WGF forums are pretty solid.

Once again, I'm saying this as someone who wants L&UL to succeed.

WGF is hopelessly backlogged with great ideas that have met their threshold already (eg those 6mm androids). They haven't accepted new submissions in forever. Let's give them some time to work through their queue. They're 47% past the point where they were supposed to post sketches and CAD images. Why not wait for them to catch up and THEN decide if you're going to pre-order? There's absolutely no rush here.

I agree with all of you – I get narked off by the 'VOTE NOW to suppport my 5mm Victorian Cyberpunk Lesbian Werewolves in Crinolines' proposal threads that people like Ueseuegi Kenshin keep posting.

But on the other hand that's the sort of thing the L&UL needs, otherwise it would soon lose its gimmicky appeal completely. And one day there may well be a proposal I can support. Not seen one yet, but if WG's quality continues to improve at the same rate it has done so far, i might buy something from them one day.

Pat

"Also BlackWidowPilot has been pushing this so heavily that they'd really want to take into consideration just what legs the product would actually have. It's taken this long to get close to 100% with all his relentless arm twisting -- so how well will they actually sell? Enough to make the $10,000 investment in injection molding worthwhile?"

That remains to be seen; the business end of things is above my pay grade (Hell, I'm not even on the WF payroll). WF's powers that be decided to launch the Liberty & Union League. I am just one of those crazies that decided this was a very cool idea, and submitted proposals accordingly…

And "arm twisting?" Am I really that (in)effective that I have had to resort to physically *coercing* people in order to take this proposal to over 90% pre-order commitment? Wow… I've committed what constitutes a felony in most states and I remain at large, and I never even had to leave my desk… Mwahahahahaaha!! Everything is proceeding according to plan…

Am I enthusiastic? Passionate? Damn straight I am.

Don't like this idea? Cool. Go pursue what you do like; I'm the last person to stop you from having fun with your hobby – ever.

Is this suit a "… GW-style PA?" Over my dead body will it wind up as such cartoon silliness, and if indeed time is weighing on your hands, please go look at my sketches on the WF Forum thread -my screen name on the WF forum is "LuoShangzhi," and then get back to me about whether or not what I have been consistently proposing is a fantasy medieval knight with a gyrojet and a chainsaw in a frankly whimpy excuse for a power suit that only negates the weight of the armour and gear, or something more akin to the nuclear-armed nastiness Robert A. Heinlein described in a little book he wrote back in 1959.

Just to be sure we're all on the same page here, GW didn't invent the concept of powered armour by any stretch of the imagination; Heinlein beat 'em to it by a good many years, and other figure makers had 28mm powered armour boots on the table long before GW came along. Hell, I have enough samples of such very models in my collection dating back to the '70s to prove it, from Grenadier and Heritage to McEwan/Reviresco and others…

"Much as everyone agreed that they wanted it to be hard sci fi, they kept going back to the GW design. Then they all started speculating on "super-tech" melee weapons and I tuned out."

And if you'd stuck around, you would have noticed that that the proposal author is 110% dead-set against such tomfoolery, and stated as much. Go back and look at the mock-up sketch of the sprue I posted; not a melee weapon in sight. So much for chainsaws and power cleavers, as they simply were never in the original proposal. Now Y-racks, jump jets, nuclear missile launchers, and other assorted nastiness, yes, but sorry, no chainsaws… Hell, who needs a chainsaw when a forearm smash would inflict injuries no trauma ward could ever hope to repair?

So some of you are quick on the trigger to voice your skepticism if not outright dislike of WF, the L&UL, and the passion of one old hobbyist who has an idea, and seems to have garnered support for that idea just shy of 100%. Whatever, people.

Don't like it, why bother putting your time and energy into opposing it at every turn? Why not just focus your precious time and energy on what you do enjoy, and leave such threads as this to those who are silly enough to like what WF has done with the L&UL, and want to support that bright idea accordingly?

IMHO it just doesn't seem very logical to pour so much vitriol on an upstart/start-up company that has launched a system that actually gives hobbyists a chance to float a proposal for a new figure, and if they manage to get enough people on board at the front end, see that idea become a 28mm reality.

Frankly, I've never seen Eureka Miniatures *ever* get such heat for their 300 Club system, so why all the grief directed at Wargames Factory?

And as for some of you who state you have yet to see a proposal you could support; why the Sam Hill didn't you submit them yourselves in the first place?!

The Liberty & Union League is IMHO very much like a democracy; if you don't participate, IMH&RO you have no business to complain when those that do participate deliver something you don't like. Fer cryin' out loud…

As for my little proposal, if any of you have some good ideas that will help the final design process, get off yer tails and go over to the WF forum thread and post your sketches, and join in the discussion.

Just don't try and post any chainsaws or space womble helmets, and no one will get hurt. Capiche?

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-expreess.net

BTW I'm in for five sprues on the 5mm Victorian Cyberpunk Lesbian Werewolves in Crinolines… VOTE TODAY!

"BTW I'm in for five sprues on the 5mm Victorian Cyberpunk Lesbian Werewolves in Crinolines… VOTE TODAY!"

Sorry, not my scale. Strictly into 28mm these days.. then I could convert them for 5150 as mercenary bodyguards…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Sorry Wellspring, I want them in 28mm.

Frankly, I've never seen Eureka Miniatures *ever* get such heat for their 300 Club system, so why all the grief directed at Wargames Factory?

Leland,

The criticism from myself and others is not directed toward Wargames Factory. Far from it. It is directed at the repetitive rally efforts on getting individual ideas voted. In your very long post above, I'm disappointed that you weren't more forthcoming that the idea you're advocating will result in you getting free product and $100 USD worth of product. It's disingenuous to not share that information when you're trying so enthusiastically to get people to buy into a new product.

From your link in the OP:

SPRUE TITLE: GENERIC POWERED ARMOUR SUIT AND WEAPONS

SUBMITTED BY: BlackWidowPilot

"How it works" from
link

HOW IT WORKS

In a Nutshell

You submit an idea for a sprue of hard plastic figures, we post it up on the site and let other people "vote" on your idea by making pre-orders (no $ down), and if enough people "order" your idea, we make it and YOU make out!

What's in it for ME?

If you submit an idea for a sprue that reaches the 1000-sprue level and is made into plastic -- you WIN the following:

10 FREE Sprues of Your Idea
A $100 USD Wargames Factory Gift Certificate
and last, but not least:
The Undying Adoration of Fellow Wargamers!

I leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions on why we have the frequency of reoccurring posts and vociferous defense of that repetition. btw- I'm not selling anything in this post, not water filtration systems, nor health products or timeshares.

"Goldwyrm,"

it is hardly a state secret that *anyone* who has a proposal to the Liberty & Union League placed in production stands to benefit with *free sprues* of figures.

So let me get this straight; you expect me and anyone else who has such a proposal they're hoping to see in production to state this policy of WF each time we mention our bright idea, as if it were some form of legally mandated disclosure, otherwise we're being *disingenuous?*

You've got to be kidding me, "Goldwyrm."

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

So let me get this straight; you expect me and anyone else who has such a proposal they're hoping to see in production to state this policy of WF each time we mention our bright idea, as if it were some form of legally mandated disclosure, otherwise we're being *disingenuous?*

If you stand to get compensated, then YES you should share that. If you want to post this topic a hundred times across the Internet I think you should disclose it each time. You didn't mention any compensation for endorsing this product.

link

See bold

§255.5 Disclosure of material connections.

When there exists a connection between the endorser and the seller of the advertised product which might materially affect the weight or credibility of the endorsement (i.e., the connection is not reasonably expected by the audience) such connection must be fully disclosed. An example of a connection that is ordinarily expected by viewers and need not be disclosed is the payment or promise of payment to an endorser who is an expert or well known personality, as long as the advertiser does not represent that the endorsement was given without compensation. However, when the endorser is neither represented in the advertisement as an expert nor is known to a significant portion of the viewing public, then the advertiser should clearly and conspicuously disclose either the payment or promise of compensation prior to and in exchange for the endorsement or the fact that the endorser knew or had reasons to know or to believe that if the endorsement favors the advertised product some benefit, such as an appearance on TV, would be extended to the endorser.

The bottom line is you're getting promise of compensation, i.e.- paid in product, if your idea gets put into production. You did not do share this in the OP, nor mention the compensation in the subsequent posts until I brought it up. Only someone clicking around on the L&UL website beyond the submission link or already aware of the process would know that information.

I'm no lawyer and I'm not with the FTC. I'm just an astute observer tired of seeing repeat topics with an unstated agenda.

Anyway, good luck with your submission.

"Lighten up, Francis."

It's The Miniatures Page. People post about miniatures.

I for one am perfectly capable of filtering out what I don't want to read, and appreciate the threads (like this one) that inform me of products that interest me.

Cheers,

Christopher

"So some of you are quick on the trigger to voice your skepticism if not outright dislike of WF, the L&UL, and the passion of one old hobbyist who has an idea, and seems to have garnered support for that idea just shy of 100%.

IMHO it just doesn't seem very logical to pour so much vitriol on an upstart/start-up company that has launched a system that actually gives hobbyists a chance to float a proposal for a new figure, and if they manage to get enough people on board at the front end, see that idea become a 28mm reality."

I saw nobody expressing dislike for WF. I REALLY saw no vitriol at all. There were a few bits of skepticism, though, which I suppose some folks still have lingering in their heads from those initial releases that some felt took so darn long.

Personally I think they make great looking stuff, now, but as I said I have no interest in much (if not all) of what they currently offer.

I got an e-mail from Tony at WGF regarding the 6mm Androids today … (my real name is Ralph,BTW !) – - – "Hi Ralph – we're working on the tool layout now. I'm trying to pack more on the sprue. I don't want to announce until we can show off what the final will look like.

Thanks!
Tony"

"I'm no lawyer and I'm not with the FTC. I'm just an astute observer tired of seeing repeat topics with an unstated agenda."

"Goldwyrm,"

first off, you're now citing a regulation that doesn't appear to take effect until December 1, 2009(!!!):

PDF link

Frankly, "Goldwyrm," I have to agree with "CATenWolde" about your coming off as the TMP Thread Police. For whatever it is worth, I've been participating on TMP since it was launched, and I know damn well that if I violated the site's Fair Use rules, Bill Himself would have me locked down in the Dawghouse (if I was lucky), or booted altogether (if I was not).

So unless Bill intervenes and thwacks me on my head, I am confident that my actions have not violated TMP Fair Use, and I have no intention of changing that pattern of conduct one millimeter until further notice.

So mea maxima culpa for upsetting you with my daring to promote a proposal that will not earn me a thin dime, will earn me some free sprues if it eventually enters production -*just *as *it *would *anyone *else *who *has *such *a *proposal *enter *production *through *the *Liberty *& *Union *League, and will provide fellow hobbyists with an affordable and versatile alternative to more expensive metal figures with multiple weapon options all on a single sprue.

Thanks for bringing to my attention that new FTC law that it appears will take effect December 1, 2009.

Cheers.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

How many figures are on a sprue?

I don't believe anyone is having a go at wargames factory. hell I hope the 6mm plastics come off great and there is a way of getting stack of different types of infantry in the future to go with other companies vehicles.

So it is my own self interest to ensure they don't lose money on this and I think with the amount of cheap power armour floating around (at every scale) they will. Thats it in a nutshell.

The Real Chris: "Ebay is crammed with 2nd hand power armour models and GW pretty much it seems makes nothing but."

You mean the 2nd hand power armor models NOT made by GW? The style that Black Widow Pilot is proposing?

Oh wait… Ebay ISN'T "crammed" with those PA models. With very few exceptions it's the same GW-made skulls-and-prayer-scrolls gothic miniatures that typify the 40K line.

That's NOT what BWP is trying to see produced. If we wanted to use 40K we would do so. We don't.

Camelspider: ". And unlike gothic sci fi there's no one really big game system to bring lots of customers to Starship Troopers style power armoured guys."

Since you have no interest in these sort of miniatures, I don't see why you'd care. Let those who want these figures produced worry about what rules they're going to use (e.g. Stargrunt II, Beamstrike, No Limits, FAD, Savage Worlds Showdown, miniature conversion of the original Avalon Hill SST box game, home-written rules, etc.).

I don't make disparaging remarks about the lines of miniatures I don't like or have no interest in. I simply say nothing and don't buy them. To each his own.

I don't see why you can't follow suit.

As one who has no financial or material advantage to gain from WF L&UL and their "if you pre-order it, it will come" unorthodox method of market research, I think the advent of the Starship Troopers-style PA is bloody exciting! I just can't frickin' wait to see the little beggars! I've been waiting for such figures since I first read the book in Jr.High, and that's a LONG time ago! Bring 'em on, Wargames Factory!

Whew, some strong opinions here!

I very much doubt that BWP is anything other than a little excited that his idea is doing well. I'd actually already heard about that FTC rule; it's disturbing but I hope we aren't going to be ratting each other out to the Feds next year.

I also think people need to get some thicker skin. I haven't seen anyone who is negative about WGF itself, or their product line. And the critiques directed at its fans are well-intentioned and constructive. I think they'd do well to try to learn from them.

The pics on the forum at the moment strongly resemble a certain company's sci-fantasy line, but obviously we're still waiting on WGF's official sketches. I hope they are cool, but you never know with these things. The normal plan is to post those sketches after it hits 50%, but obviously they're hopelessly backlogged right now.

At 93%, the proposal is in no danger of being killed. So why commit to them, sight unseen, when we can just wait until we see the official prototypes? I'm not clear on what the rush is.

"5mm Victorian Cyberpunk Lesbian Werewolves"

submitted…

Btw way, I noticed I've received more of the "vitriol" than either BWP or WF, which is fine, as I'm no doubt the most prolific supporter (and poster) WF submitted ideas at TMP.

Dont like my posts???? Dont read them or me …really..how hard is either one of those.

I've limited myself to on average 1 WF topic per month (3 in August thow, I guess i just got carried away!) per a request from whom? Yep, WF. If I mention a WF product in another persons post its because I honestly may be something they might useful and are not aware of.

I also took a look today at the first page in the TMP SF Discussion Board…guess how many "WF by Uesugi" topics there are posted….ZERO.

I took a look at the first page in the TMP Plastic figures TMP Thread…guess how many "WF by Uesugi" topics I counted…"3"…..out of 100 topics posted.

How DARE I have the gall to post three plastic WF miniature related topics in the "Plastic Figure" TMP Thread and take up all that precious room….sigh.

If anyone bothered to notice, 1 post was about Near-Future weapons (a sci-fi topic).
1 post was about "Dervishes" (a 19th century topic).
a third post was about ancient plastics available from WF. So the three topics by me were not even related to the same periods, hence I assumed I would be catering to different crowds. Further, out of those three topics only 1 was submitted by me. Thats right, I had the gall (again) to support 2 other peoples submissions at TMP. Well folks, thats what we do at The Liberty and Union League. WE support each other. What a novel concept in the gaming world. Sure we argue back and forth over minor points, but isn't everyone being able to voice their opinions freely and loudly part of the democratic process?

I make no apology for my enthusiasm for WF or Eureka's products. And Ive probably posted close to as many Eureka posts here as I have about any WF products, yet I've never received any complaints about the Eureka posts (dont believe me, search "huaxtecs"! lol. That does make me wonder about all the "WF thread" bashing as it seems curiously targeted.

Anyway, as I said, I make no apology for my continued support and enthusiasm for WF as a company or WF related products. Am I overzealous at times…sure I am. But its nice in this day and age to frankly be this excited and this passionate about anything.

That said, I WILL apologize to WARGAMES FACTORY and their tireless staff for any negative attention I have ever brought on your company or your products. I truly I hope I have not hurt your outstanding products and ideas to any degree.

Off hand, on average, when I have posted a WF topic on TMP, the submission in question usually averages about a 4% increase in pre-orders in the days following my post. The last WF topic I "spam'd" TMP with was Near-Future Weapons in September. They experienced a 9% increase in pre-orders in a 24 hour period whereas they had experienced, on average, a 1-2% increase per month prior to the post.

Does that mean my post directly lead to the 9% increase in pre-sales…not necessarily…..but then again…who knows.

Bottom line, people who post "WF" related topics would do themselves well to post "WF" in the title of their thread to avoid the Negative-nancy-boys mucking up their discussions with "wahhhhh, another WF topic…wahhhhh" posts.

People who dont like WF posts, dont read em. Feel free to keep posting complaints in mine however! Everytime you do you bump my topic right back up to the top of the thread.

Cheers.

"Wellspring,"

I plead guilty on all counts to your accusation that I am enthusiastic about my L&UL proposal. I throw myself on the mercy of the court.

I agree, that at this juncture, being past the 90% mark puts this suit in an excellent position to go into eventual production. That said, why the Hell not push past that 100% threshold?!

I admit freely that I am *impatient as all Hell* to see some official WF 3D renders! Like such enthusiasm is a bad thing…

And I respectfully beg differ that the sketches resemble a certain company's sci-fantasy line; see my comments above about just how long powered armour figures have in fact been around. BTW, there are a LOT of pictures and *original sketches* on that particular thread, all posted by myself and other fans of the proposal. If you think this suit will be just another not-space womble, please reread the proposal description:

____________________________________________________________________________
SPRUE TITLE: GENERIC POWERED ARMOUR SUIT AND WEAPONS

SUBMITTED BY: BlackWidowPilot

SIZE/SCALE: 28mm

SET DESCRIPTION: Plastic, generic powered armour troopers ala Heinlein's STARSHIP TROOPERS *the book!* >;D By powered armour I mean a suit that looks like Heinlein's "steel gorilla" with a multitude of weapon options, a one-man fighting suit that isn't a Japanimation giant robot but a one-man wrecking crew like Johnny Rico's gang wore, not the namby-pamby sexy-chick-in-a-hardshell with a pistol some makers are fond of, nor the cheesy medieval knights with guns of others who shall remain nameless (but still the deserving butt of my gauss rifle laughing stock). I'm talkin' some nuclear-armed fusion-powered jump-jet-propelled on-the-bounce-go-wreck-da-place powered armour, playbalance and other prissiness be damned!

REFERENCE MATERIALS: STARSHIP TROOPERS by Robert A. Heinlein ARMOR by John Steakley Numerous other classic science fiction tales and cover art from literature of the pulp era through the 60s and 70s, including but not limited to Poul Anderson's ENSIGN FLANDRY series, THE FOREVER WAR by Joe Haldemann, and others. My own sketchpad and art portfolio stand ready as well, at the disposal *in gratis* of Wargames Factory.

ESTIMATED PRICE PER SPRUE: $5 USD

____________________________________________________________________________

I will assume (!!) that everyone here understands the term "in gratis."

As for seeing WF attacked directly, it most assuredly has happened here and elsewhere, for a time with fairly predictable timing from fairly predictable sources IMHO. Whatever. IMHO so far Wargames Factory has proven the nay-sayers wrong, and will continue to do so.

So far the proposal is at 94%. I see nothing wrong with taking it over the top to 100%.

Respectfully,

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

*sheesh* – a little plastic sprue power armor request turns ugly. What a waste.

"How many figures are on a sprue?"

"Castellan,"

originally the proposal was for 3-4 figures per sprue, but after using an actual 4" x 6" sprue as a guide, the number has come down to two suits per sprue to accommodate the desired bulk of the suit and all of the optional weapons and gear we're trying to include to make the suits as customizable as possible.

Hope this helps!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Why doesnt that surprise me…..

"So it is my own self interest to ensure they don't lose money on this and I think with the amount of cheap power armour floating around (at every scale) they will"

Um, please remind me what companies produce cheap plastic multi-part 28mm scale powered armour figures that come with multiple weapon and equipment options on the same sprue that fit the description of the actual Liberty & Union league proposal.

If such exist, i'd like to at least take pains to *not* inadvertently resemble their design at the very least (and Hell, I'll probably add a few dozens to my collection assuming the production quality is up to what WF has been making of late).

Thanks!

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

"*sheesh* – a little plastic sprue power armor request turns ugly. What a waste."

"Why doesnt that surprise me….."

C'mon, crew! "Never give up! Never surrender!"

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

@BlackWidowPilot
@Uesugi Kenshin
Has it ever occured to you two that you do more to turn people off WF than anyone else.

"5mm Victorian Cyberpunk Lesbian Werewolves"

submitted…

Btw way, I noticed I've received more of the "vitriol" than either BWP or WF, which is fine, as I'm no doubt the most prolific supporter (and poster) of WF submitted ideas at TMP.

Dont like my posts???? Dont read them or me …really..how hard is either one of those.

I've done my best to try to limit myself to on average 1 WF topic per month (3 in August tho, I guess i just got carried away!) per a request from whom? Yep, WF. If I mention a WF product in another persons post its because I honestly believe it may be something they might find useful and are not aware of.

I also took a look today at the first page in the TMP SF Discussion Board…guess how many "WF by Uesugi" topics there are posted….ZERO.

I took a look at the first page in the TMP Plastic figures TMP Thread…guess how many "WF by Uesugi" topics I counted…"3"…..out of 100 topics posted.

How DARE I have the gall to post three plastic WF miniature related topics in the "Plastic Figure" TMP Thread and take up all that precious room….sigh.

If anyone bothered to notice, 1 post was about Near-Future weapons (a sci-fi topic).
1 post was about "Dervishes" (a 19th century topic).
a third post was about ancient plastics available from WF. So the three topics by me were not even related to the same periods, hence I assumed I would be catering to different crowds. Further, out of those three topics only 1 was submitted by me. Thats right, I had the gall (again) to support 2 other peoples submissions at TMP. Well folks, thats what we do at The Liberty and Union League. WE support each other. What a novel concept in the gaming world. Sure we argue back and forth over minor points, but isn't everyone being able to voice their opinions freely and loudly part of the democratic process?

I make no apology for my enthusiasm for WF or Eureka's products. And Ive probably posted close to as many Eureka posts here as I have about any WF products, yet I've never received any complaints about the Eureka posts (dont believe me, search "huaxtecs"! lol. That does make me wonder about all the "WF thread" bashing as it seems curiously targeted.

"Its no secret you get free figures from WF if your submission blah blah blah"

Of course its no secret, WF has it printed in bold ink on their submissions page. So what, you get 10 free sprues. I have ordered 20 sprues of everything I have submitted to ensure that WF gets some sort of compensation out of the time and trouble they took to foster "my" submissions.

Anyway, as I said, I make no apology for my continued support and enthusiasm for WF as a company or WF related products. Am I overzealous at times…sure I am. But its nice in this day and age to frankly be this excited and this passionate about anything.

That said, I WILL apologize to WARGAMES FACTORY and their tireless staff for any negative attention I have ever brought on your company or your products. I truly I hope I have not hurt your outstanding products and ideas to any degree.

Off hand, on average, when I have posted a WF topic on TMP, the submission in question usually averages about a 4% increase in pre-orders in the days following my post. The last WF topic I "spam'd" TMP with was Near-Future Weapons in September. They experienced a 9% increase in pre-orders in a 24 hour period whereas they had experienced, on average, a 1-2% increase per month prior to the post.

Does that mean my post directly lead to the 9% increase in pre-sales…not necessarily…..but then again…who knows.

Bottom line, people who post "WF" related topics would do themselves well to post "WF" in the title of their thread to avoid the Negative-nancy-boys mucking up their discussions with "wahhhhh, another WF topic…wahhhhh" posts.

People who dont like WF posts, dont read em. Feel free to keep posting complaints in mine however! Every time you do you bump my topic right back up to the top of the thread.

Cheers.

"@BlackWidowPilot
@Uesugi Kenshin
Has it ever occured to you two that you do more to turn people off WF than anyone else."

Can you provide us with *empirical proof* of that assertion?

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Bravo X and Goldwym…

I am not one to buy much in the way of figs anymore unless I need em… I do find some of the WF-centered posts annoying… but I do not fault the guys for trying to get something made.

The fact they are getting compensated… so f-ing what?

They did submit the design ideas. Takes some guts to submit something and have it go anywhere (I know this- I submitted shotgun troopers a long while back and they are quite gone)

Their stake in the sprues getting made may not be for the financial/product gain. It might be for the really honest reasoning of getting something they think is neat and might be considered neat enough by others to buy… Such thinking will make the company some money and thats not a bad thing, is it?

As others have said besides them, if you don't want to hear about what tehy are trying to get folks interested in, don't read the thread.

Not a soul out there is twisting your arm to do so.

***

and Goldwym, I vaguely remember a point in time you were looking for non-GW plastic PA… or the really old stuff from GW that was not so off on proportions like they became. It was before the WW2 game of yours took off locally. (christ, that's a long time ago now…)

Relax will ya? Nothing they are doing is wrong to my thinking, just like your complaining about it has nothing overtly wrong with it. But it is an accurate thought- if you don't want to read it, don't click the link.

:)

And before anyone asks, no I have no stake in their suggested stuff…. and no interest/thoughts on any of it except in "That's kinda neat…" where the ships are concerned.

I like Heinlien's book and the worst thing that could have happened to it was that %$#!^%@T#@ movie and the figures that were released.

Just ruined my image of the world in that novel.

Long posts are more often a sign of caring too much about too little, so I'll try my best to be brief.

@Tarkin- Howdy. I still play and buy Sci-fi. I even buy WF products
picture

I wouldn't have posted on this topic, except for responding to Uesugi insulting people with different opinions calling them nancy naysayers. Once I got involved, BWP set me off with "(Hell, I'm not even on the WF payroll)" when I know that he knows he's promised to get $150 USD in product compensation for his efforts. On principle I feel that is a conflict of interest to convince other people to buy into something and not disclose to them that you're going to get a direct material benefit from it. It doesn't require a W2.

That's all. They can ignore my opinion in their enthusiasm over a potential new toy, but I was calling it as I see it.

Um, please remind me what companies produce cheap plastic multi-part 28mm scale powered armour figures that come with multiple weapon and equipment options on the same sprue that fit the description of the actual Liberty & Union league proposal.
>>>>>>>>>
To be frank, no idea. Were those starship troopers models 28mm?

But even the scale. 15mm perhaps (though stiff competition from existing models). 28mm and we are taking skirmish size, how many sales is that? And if you want silly ig battles you may as well pick up a load of 2nd hand GW stuff, I'd say it matches the mass battles at 28mm sillyness exactly.

Howard from WF here.

I think this is all a bit of a storm in the proverbial teacup. I applaud Leland's enthusiasm, but I also understand Goldwyrm's irritation (hey Mike!).

The Liberty and Union League has certainly brought out a huge amount of interest, and we are gratified by this. It has been more successful than we ever expected. The flip side of this is that – since WF is still a very small company – that we are not yet in a position to either produce every item that garners a lot of interest, or to make renders (those are the digital images that fall somewhere between sketches and actual sculpts) for them.

That's because the CEO and head sculptor sometimes have to spend days packing and shipping product. As I said, small company (even with the aid of the disabled workers at Triangle)

Even so, we have put out six new sets in 2009, with more to follow.

As we grow, we'll be able to put out more L&U sets on a regular basis (and I know the enthusiasts for Sci-Fi infantry in greatcoats, 6mm androids and Marlburian foot will be happy to see them!)

We'll also help the enthusiasm along by putting up renders to let people see what they will be getting. Whenever we do this, the 'votes' go up rapidly.

As those things happen, it will seem less and less necessary for the proposers to ring bells and shout out their wares (on TMP and elsewhere) like medieval pedlars.

Hmm, ' 28mm medieval pedlars -- now at 0%' :)

After reading this lively thread, I have preordered 5 sprues.

By my wholly unscientific estimate, I'm guessing that Leland (BWP) has put at least 100 hours into this project, including working on sketches, responding to posts, and generating copious posts/threads about this particular project.

I'm sure that he isn't motivated to do this by the promise of $50 USD in free sprues, but by his desire for the finished product to be available for him to purchase.

He could certainly earn more than $50 USD doing something else with 100 hours of his time. He might not have the ability to produce plastic "Heinlein inspired" power armor minis on his own.

If his repeated cheerleading for the project gets annoying (and I can understand that – sorry Leland), just ignore the threads, or skip past posts with his name. It's pretty darn simple to avoid his posts/threads.

I'd love to see these in 15mm :)