"Austrians Pre-1798 ???" Topic

A couple of questions regarding pre-1798 Austrians.

1. Osprey indicates no pattern on shoulders pre-1798, just plain white. Possibly piping on shoulder bars after that. Does that sound correct?

2. For Grenz 1796-97 Italian campaign, Osprey indicates White Pants, White Coats once mobilized – brown only worn "in peacetime". So are they basically dressed like Fusiliers without piping on the back of the coat? Fusilier hats? I am doing Carlstadt and Siebenburger bns at Rivoli, and they indicate Violet facing on one Carlstadt Bn, Orange-Yellow on the other, then Parrot Green for Siebenburger. Other sources indicate brown jackets and blue Hungarian style pants. So what do you think?

3. There is also some confusion about the Croatians. SimTac's Rivoli OOB has 1st and 2nd combined Croation Bns, showing them in Brown jackets, white pants. Millar says these are the 1st and 2nd Carlstadt Bns.

4. Anyone want to take a stab at the Facing color for the Grenadier Battalion Khevenhuller-Metsch?

5. Millar also has 2 Composite ‘Wallach' Grenz Battalions, which are not shown at all in the SimTac OOB. Thoughts here?

Steve Millar's article I am referring to is at link

Hmm. Re question 2, i've never heard of grenzers in white pants. AFAIK, the grenzers were in white jackets – brown was brought in during 1809 – and the blue hungarian pants.

As for part 4: Austrian Grenadier battalions were usually made from the Grenadier companies of three different regiments, so you would have 3 two company grenadier divisions each with a different facing color, and perhaps different colored pants also if the battalion was made up of German and Hungarian Grenadiers.

I would agree that almost all of the Grenz units I have seen references to had sky blue Hungarian pants.

Will

Question nr 4, as stated in the article the battalion was composed of the grenadiers fo te regiments
Infantry Regiment ‘Granduca di Toscana' Nr. 23
Infantry Regiment ‘Freiherr von Preiss' Nr. 24
Infantry Regiment ‘Oliver, Graf Wallis' Nr. 29
So they would have facings of poppy red (23), dark blue (24), pale blue (29).

An anonymous series of Austrians in "Belgium" in 1787 shows all Grenz infantry with dark blue trousers and white coats, the Artaria series of 1792 shows them in light blue trousers and white coats.

A pciture showing the Austrians in 1799 in Switzerland, Berner manuscript, shows a Grenz Scharfschützen in bleu trousers and also white coat and light blue trousers

A series – showing them in 1767 shows white trousers.

Therefore I would presume blue trousers from 1792 onwards – as typical dress.

As top the colour of the coat, so far – all my contemporary sources give white.

A combination of white pants and brown coats seems to be very unlikley in my opinion.

Headress was the usual Kasket – but Grenzscharfschützen (3 illustrations I know about) show them with Klobuk.

This osprey has also some early pictures of grenzers

link

Another earlier "grenz" discussion on TMP TMP link

As a follow-on question. I have seen a source (Digby Smith) that indicates the White was actually a Pearl Grey color…essentially a very light greyish white. I have painted my 1796 IR19 Alvintzi in this uniform color with the Hungarian Blue trousers. I rather like the look but was wondering if this is too far off base. Any thoughts?

The white was a natural wool white

So what's the explanation behind MAA Osprey 176 "when mobilized the officiL uniform was white waistcoat and breeches"? That is in paragraph discussing 1790s and having "brown coat", "ordinary trousers" "in peacetime".

Also that "around 1790 … At which period white breeches were worn with the white jacket". Haythornthwaute says in 1798 brown coat and Hungarian pants.

I don't know the explanation behind the Osprey – all I say is that out of 4 contemporary documents I have in

1767 – Grenzer with white coats and white trousers
and then from 1787 onwards
White coats and blue trousers. (Lastes in 1799 – Berner manuscript).

Duke,
I would suggest to look for the MAA 299 of Dave Hollins or his grenz MAA (see liink above)
In MAA 299 is stated aout the grenz uniforms:
Officially the feldmontur (there was also a hausmontur for service at the border) consisted of a white 1769 pattern coat, white trousers with side strip in facing colour (the trousers looser at knee than hungarian ones), white leatherwork, black cartidge box and scabbard, infantry kaskett. But some wore also the skintight blue hungarian trousers and the klobuk. When wearing blue trousers and the kaskett the grenzers looked as a hungarian rgiment of the line.
Also Slavonian regiments wore the brown "hausmontur" jackets and Banat regiments worde the German style coat (with round cuffs).
In 1798 this changed to the 1798 coat (in white also for Slavonian regiments, and blue trousers, in 1801 klobuks received peaks.
So probably you can pick what you want esp. as in the revolution some would wear what was available. Grenzers had lost a lot of troops in the war against Turkey and replacements for the western theatres were scarce so maybe replacements were hurried to these fronts in the "hausmontur" uniforms.

I would opt for 1796 to 1799 for white coats and blue trousers.

Thanks for the help.

Von Winterfeldt, I'm always curious to learn but on what source do you base the 1796 to 1799 period? 1798 is the year of change for the austrian army, at least theoratically and some changes only occur years later.

I agree with you and also think it is possible that some grenz regiments would wear blue trousers and maybe brown coats earlier then stated but then unofficially.

I can base my option only on those 4 series of photos I have about contemporary prints

1767
1787
1792
1799

All in white uniform.

From 1787 my picture sources show blue (light to dark blue) trousers.

the more contemporary sources come up, the more we will learn.

The rest is pure speculation.

Alas Dave Hollins is no longer on this forum so we cannot discuss this topic with him.

An additional question here – in terms of uniform cut and headwear, are these going to otherwise appear as German or Hungarian Fusiliers?

Here was Dave Hollins' reply to a similar question posed in 2007. He more or less convinced me that white is right. His point about an error being repeated across multiple sources of uniform plates is a good one to be aware of.

I am not returning, but it seems important to me that if I have made an error in a book someone has paid for, then I should endeavour to correct any misunderstanding.

Terry37 – In the word reduction process, the title of that facings caption got mangled. It should have said that it was thye facing colours with changes after 1807 (the year of the great Border refoms). Thus the list is correct for the entire period from 1769 to 1816.

It is now 12 years since I wrote MAA299 and it has been possible to do some more work on the Frontier – the result is mainly MAA413 Austrian Frontier Troops 1740-98, if any of you are interested in the earlier period (which is more colourful).

Now to the vexed question of uniform colours. The Vienna authorities provided much of the field uniform for two (1805:3) battalions and one reserve battalion per Regiment. The uniforms were replaced on a rolling programme of one third every two years and thus complete replacement every 6 years. This meant that it was only in 1805 that the authorities could put battalions (of 4 cos that year) into the field of uniform appearance.

As SQP says, the actual single uniform regualtion dates from late 1808 and consequently, the field uniform prior to that was the white uniform (which should answer the Austerlitz question). The changeover dates are from Wrede's 5 vol work on the army, which follows the regs through. he says "1809" for the Deutsch-Banat, but you can imagine the questions, which would follow! Given the changeover period and the desperate shortage of money in the Empire at the time, it seemed sensible to say 1810 for the DB to avoid confusion.

The supply by the Imperial authorities is always at the heart of the problem as the Grenzers had to supply some bits of field kit and nearly all of the Frontier uniform themselves. Black belts were decreeed in 1798, but all the evidence and the obvious fact that line infantry did not use them points to black belts only coming in post-1809 as part fo the new uniform. Grenzers woudl use often use their own kit – notably leather knapsacks rather than official backpacks as well as carrying Balkan knives.

So, make your troops pre-1805 rather uneven in look and even after, allow for some differences. There is an illustration provided to me by Alfred Umhey and shown in b/w in the Infantry Warrior p.28, which shows the troops in 1805. One Grenzer on the left is in a brown jacket with the pink Szeckler facings – HOWEVER this appears to be a post-war illustration and like you guys painting figures, many artists like to vary things. Unless a battalion is including troops drawn from deeper reserves than the reserve battalion (eg: some of the composite battalions of the 1790s or many of the troops facing Marmont in 1809), they should have the Imperial uniforms – ie: white up to 1809.

The Klobuks start to get peaks from about 1801 and by 1805 would have been universal, but they do not seem to have had the pom-pon at the top, just the central rose and strapping.

Flags were issued, but do not appear to have been carried on campaign. The Seressaner did not deploy in the field in the period. The Hausmontur uniforms did not include coloured turnbacks, just cuffs and collars.

Fritz, I'm, afraiod that the repetition of a single source in multiple versions is not the same as independent sources. The derivation here is Ottenfeld copying the 1808 reg, which is henm copied by Knotel and so on into haythornthwaite and Hourtoulle (althouh somehow I don't suppose anyone would use a recent Austrian book as a source for French uniforms?).

Anyway, hope that clears it all up and that's it. Bye.

I agree on the color at this point. My confusion now was the cut of the uniform and the headwear type. Fusilier?

Yes