Maxshadow | 03 Oct 2009 9:10 a.m. PST |
Back in the early nineties I found a second hand book filled with dice less rules for different wargame eras including Naval. It was a fantastic book with lots of clever ideas and i was very disappointed when I lost my copy. I have forgotten the title or author. All i can remember is that it was a small green book and that the author was American. Anyone got any ideas? regards Max |
Top Gun Ace | 03 Oct 2009 10:08 a.m. PST |
Sorry, never seen it. No doubt it has been surpressed by the Dice Oligarchy
.. |
Richard Humm | 03 Oct 2009 10:44 a.m. PST |
If it wasn't for the American author, I'd have said "Rules for War Gaming" by Arthur Taylor – link It is a small green book, and has entirely diceless systems for many periods, including Age of Sail and modern naval. |
Mick A | 03 Oct 2009 11:31 a.m. PST |
Thats the one I was going to say as well
Mick |
Maxshadow | 04 Oct 2009 2:29 a.m. PST |
Thats the book. Thanks very much for the help. Max |
DS6151 | 05 Oct 2009 4:08 a.m. PST |
How do you resolve things without the dice? Cards? Debate? Violence? |
Dexter Ward | 05 Oct 2009 6:14 a.m. PST |
The rules have fixed factors adjusted for different situations (+50% if you attack from the flank, -25% if attacking cover, that sort of thing). Then you look at a table and it tells you how many casualties each side suffers. My personal feeling is: a) it's not realistic – no real commander can precalculate the results of a combat b) it's not much fun to play |
DS6151 | 07 Oct 2009 8:16 a.m. PST |
Ah, I see. But, after a few games, wouldn't that lead to players knowing the outcomes beforehand, and only attacking when they know they can win? I would think there would develop a repetative form of play because of that. |
DaFebe | 11 Dec 2009 3:10 p.m. PST |
I was actually a pupil at AGS in Aylesbury where Arthur Taylor taught history during the 70's. He ran an extramural ECW club and I had the opportunity to use his "little green book" in many campaigns. He used the (then new) concept of simultaneous moves (versus "your turn to move", "my turn to move") coupled with the somewhat novel idea that orders where submitted in 'batches' (for example, the next 5 moves for a specific unit are a,b,c,d,& e). This was an attempt to emulate the way in which instructions were issued by the commanding officer. Once an order had been issued, there was a definite delay before it got to its' intended unit and once received, it had to be executed regardless of what the opposition had decided to do in the interim. Each side's move was made simultaneously – both making their move at the same time – exactly in accordance with the operation specified in the batch of orders. A referee was responsible for making sure that the orders were executed accurately – if a player/team wanted to deviate from orders already issued, they could amend the instructions, but it would require allowing a predetermined number of moves to go by before the new orders could be actioned – just like it would have done in real-life. The referee also was responsible for ensuring that common sense prevailed: such as the reality of a specific interaction between units instructed to occupy the same space actually taking place. [For example, if a regiment of poorly equipped new recruits was instructed to occupy a space that the other team had, on the same turn, moved a highly-experienced cavalry platoon into – the foot soldiers would then be allowed to disobey orders and run away!] The structure allowed games to unfold in a very realistic manner, with units being held to their orders rather than instantly reacting to whatever took place on the previous move. Casualty counts were fixed, but the enjoyment came from what preceded the incident. Boring repetition was never a factor. For me, the "little green book" took gaming to a whole new level of realism by removing the very serial "your go, my go, your go" sequencing, and doing away with the more typical roll-of-the-dice randomness that I always felt to be overly abstract and arbitrary. Dave |
Mehoy Nehoy | 18 Dec 2009 4:16 p.m. PST |
Dexter, how can a game with no dice be less fun to play than one with dice? Chess is a classic example of a game with fixed factors for all occasions. What's more, the two 'armies' are an exact match. But you can't precalculate a victory because you are playing against another human being. And any move in Go has so many possible consequences that, for novices like me, the one to take is the one 'that feels right'. No matter how realistic they're supposed to be, all games are abstract. I've nothing against dice but If you factor in enough variables, you can still produce a game that is 'realistic'. |
paperbattles | 16 Feb 2016 3:15 a.m. PST |
Hi all, thanks to this topic I finally found a wargame rules without dice. Actually I am writing by myself rules for wargaming without dice. This is possible because I use a 1:1 ratio for battles, see paperbattles.it I bought these rules and I am very curious what the author found out. Personally I solved the problem of morale cohesion and firing without the use of the dice, giving a huge range of different possibilities.
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Fergal | 16 Feb 2016 8:48 a.m. PST |
Ah, I see. But, after a few games, wouldn't that lead to players knowing the outcomes beforehand, and only attacking when they know they can win? I would think there would develop a repetative form of play because of that.
Players do know the likely outcome of an attack beforehand, the dice are there to randomize it a bit (if they randomized it too much, folks wouldn't like it as there would be no advantage to well thought out tactics). What this would lead to is folks maneuvering into better odds before attacking, which is what you'd do if there were real lives on the line. I'd try it. |
Weasel | 16 Feb 2016 1:26 p.m. PST |
I've played diceless rpg's and that went fine. i prefer the fun of random factors but it'll play fine. The movement, units, terrain and objectives act as a randomizing factor, if you will. |
ChargeSir | 16 Feb 2016 1:52 p.m. PST |
In case anyone wants a copy they have been reprinted by John Curry under the History of Wargaming Project. Look for Early wargaming rules vol 5 the book also includes John Tunstill's Discovering Wargames, and Bill Lammings Medieval Campaign and battle rules. |
paperbattles | 16 Feb 2016 4:28 p.m. PST |
I bought one today. I am very curious to read it. btw even without dice it is possible to randomize the game. I am preparing a little scenario to prove it |
ChargeSir | 17 Feb 2016 12:24 a.m. PST |
Well post up what you find out, I will be interested in your findings. |