"FOW -- full moon?" Topic

Are all tournament players difficult or is it just FOW tournament players?

I dunno what it is this year but sheesh, I have never seen so many competing factions as I have seen with the FOW crowd this year.

Competitive – non competitive; monsters or not; this book or that book; old books or new books; one day, two days, three days; start at 5, 6, 7, or 9 p.m. (yeah 9 p.m.); 'you can't start until an hour after my baby sitter gets here'; one painting prize or painting prizes for vehicles, infantry, and dance hall girls . . . who's going to judge, when will they judge, single player, teams, 'how can I win if they are going to play teams; protests, threats, and if I don't get my way, I'll take my toys and go home!

At least there haven't been any bomb threats.

And the best part -- they don't talk to each other, they don't e-mail the guy running the event, they harangue the Convention staff to 'take their side and make it right'. Never mind the convention has nothing to do with the event save, turn on the lights, make sure they have a table and chairs and hand out the prizes. Ahh the prizes -- I may be wrong but very likely everyone that plays is going to get something this year. Can't say I've ever seen a tournament where everyone that plays gets a prize but that's very possible this year.

Do FOW players actually spend time playing the game? Do they enjoy playing? Or do they find that attempting to manipulate the event is just as important as choosing the right army lists?

I haven't heard a peep out of the 40K tournament guys. Seems they would have the same issues? NO???

What gives?

mjc

Never been in a tournament, don't plan to.

Tournaments of any kind should be avoided like the plague.

Yes I know they will tell you that they are nice people. And away from the tournament table many are. But at the tournament the monster in them comes out. It doesn't have to be FOW. It can be any tournament.

I can say quite without any hesitation, that some of the nastiest people I have ever met, some of the biggest cheats and rule benders, are tournament players. Those that will argue over 2mm of width of as gap between obstacles, and bring a whole area to a standstill with their loud and aggressive arguments.

But as mentioned. Not all of them, but those that are in the monster bracket ruin it for the rest, and give the more mild mannered a bad reputation they may not deserve. My bad experiences with some of the monsters has probably coloured my perception too.

I'm not a competition gamer, never have been and never would be. But as I say, that is based on my perception of the monsters.

That sounds completely different to how the FoW players (tournaments or not) are around here.

But tournaments in general bring out some nitpicking sides of many players – small things that favour or disfavour the lists they want to play get importance out of proportion.

Sounds like competition gamers in general :-)

Well,not every tourney is like being in the Ninth Circle…I play in one groups tourney,and one only-The GLADBAG DBA tourneys that I've attended are genuinely laid back,and everyone is for the most part friendly. Most of the people there have generaqlly won at something,and they seem to lack the kill or be killed atitude. I always have a good time.

Tournaments can bring the worst out in people. Some tournament groups are better than others. It's just random.

"Yes I know they will tell you that they are nice people. And away from the tournament table many are. But at the tournament the monster in them comes out. It doesn't have to be FOW. It can be any tournament."

There have been a couple of threads on the FoW forum--one current--in which players absolutely disavow any sort of "ultracompetitive" behavior.

At least Dr. Jeckyll remembered what Mr. Hyde had been up to the night before.

Allen

I played for years in Northeast USA tournaments, and none of the behavior you describe is the least bit familiar to me.

See? It's that denial thing.

Allen

Tournaments of any kind should be avoided like the plague.

Yes I know they will tell you that they are nice people. And away from the tournament table many are. But at the tournament the monster in them comes out. It doesn't have to be FOW. It can be any tournament.

Well, yeah.
The trick though, is if you don't care, and can let it all roll off your back, you can still have fun.

I used to play a large board wargame with a guy that was such a whiner that I'd take my turn, and then show him all the weak points in my position, and what I'd do to exploit them. Then, after he moved, I'd show him all his mistakes so he could correct them. It was faster that way, and I never had to yell. More of a challenge for me, too.
-Kle.

Tournaments (and I've played a few) can attract the more competitive type of player. Really though, YMMV a great deal.

Denial is a river in Egypt.

As with all games, the competitive monster will arise in everyone if you see injustice, whether real or imagined or if it's linked with frustration at feeling like you have been unexpectedly hoodwinked.

it is easy to build a reputation of being difficult.

but there is nothing wrong with playing competitively and fairly so that you are a difficult opponent to play against. Some of my best games have been played like that, and the setting of a tournament was incidental.

and I do find that attitudes can change with people too.

All my experience with tournaments has been almost entirely positive, yet 5 years ago, I would have been the first to say "avoid like the plague"

Never been in a tournament, don't plan to.

That would be me as well.

I did see a 40K Tournament gamer bounce a die off another players head (unintentional) while pitching a fit a few months ago.

I saw a tournament player offer to bounce another tournament player's head off his fist one time!

The trouble for ME, was that I sat nearby trying to keep a sort of 'I'm neutral and dont care' look on my face, but made the fatal mistake of catching the eye of the aggressive one.
And them…no no…he didnt try to bounce my head instead….it was much worse that that….he mistook my look for one of support. So for the rest of that day and most of the next day, he poured his heart out to me about the shabby deal he'd been given by the referee and how he saw the other player bump the scenery across those two millimetres while moving his troops and was sure it was deliberate so his 40mm wide bases would no longer fit through the gap.

By the time the weekend had finished I was kind of wishing he had just hit me and shut up. I learnt from that never to look neutral. Always look like you dont agree with ANY OF THEM!

You're actually complaining about the players for the Tactical Solutions convention.

I don't play in tournaments, I just play FOW and the group here in the Coeur d'Alene area are quite amiable chaps.

I remember all the WRG Ancient tournaments and they were quite the controversial thing back in the day.

Pretty much all the FoW tournaments I have been to have been very pleasaont experiences. The worst was one where things like the start and end time for the games seemed to be made up on the fly by the umpire and to bear no relationship to the infomation provided to the players.

Tournaments do need organisation but it should not get in the way of playing the games. The main thing any organisation should be doing is to make the whole event run smoothly. If players turn up at the expected start time they should have an opponent sorted out and know where they are playing. At the end of their game they should hand in a score and then let the organisers do their stuff.

I must have played in getting on for 200 tournaments of various sorts over the years and the vast majority (well over 95% of them) have been superb experiences. The rest have still been good weekends even if the tournaments themselves could have been more enjoyable.

For me tournaments are may things all at the same time. Firstly they are a social event where I get to meet up with my mates and other like minded individuals. Secondly they are opportunities to play games against people who I don't get to play at the club. Thirdly they test my skill at the game and finally there is a chance I might get a small prize.

I was at a tournament last weekend and had a great time. I am at another next weekend and hope that will be just as much fun.

Mal,

My opinion of tournaments used to be the same as yours, but at our local convention last year (and planned, again this year odms-club.com/convention ) we had a couple of tournaments.

The players were very well-mannered, the gameplay was attractive, and they all seemed to have a good time. Still not my cup of tea, but after seeing that experience I did play in a tournament at a convention last spring at Cold Wars in Pennsylvania. My reason was to participate in a lot of concentrated Warhammer Ancient Battles games (to learn the rules better). I found the competitors to be very pleasant and well-mannered, and the game play was fun and informative.

I don't know if my experience is par for the course, but watching the Flames of War tournament at Williamsburg Muster, and participating in the Warhammer Ancients Battles tournament at Cold Wars were very pleasant.

Now if I had been playing Warrior, or DBM, it might have been different . . . :)

Chuck

I have to say that I really think that it is not system specific or even tournament players specific. It is down to the individual.

In my (albeit relatively new) experience there is one individual that behaves in a certain fashion irrespective of whether it is a friendly or a tournament. Everyone else I have played with has been great fun!!

Sorry to say I must be in denial too. I play in the WAB tournaments at the HMGS-East conventions and we don't seem to have these problems. Drop by and see. I must say the DBA guys next to us look like they are having a good time too.

Ralph

It's really a mixed bag: sometimes you get a good (if not great) tournament group, everyone's there with their "A" game, but not being an unreasonable dick about things and having fun.

But sometimes you get people who think that bringing their "A" game means throwing civility out the window.

It's not limited to any miniatures game, or even to minis in general (John McEnroe?). Some people just have to win. Sadly, I'm often one of them.

Mal,
My opinion of tournaments used to be the same as yours

G'Day Chuck.
I'll have a closer look on your recommendation….but I'll wear a helmet and consider ear plugs in case someone else thinks I'm a shoulder to cry on for a whole weekend!

Never played FoW tournament, but have seen many at Lancaster.
Organizers do a beautiful job on the scenery- but some armies are just visually "ahem" insane? Have seen a 4 tigers in the middle of the town- each pointing down a street at the crossroads. With a sprinkling of some infantry added… And so on…
I have played many DBX tournaments and even won a couple. Never had a bad experience. Mind you, those were 25s, not 15s.
Seems like 25s crowd is more jovial and easy going. Of course huge quantities of beer help a lot.

I can't speak for other systems, although most of my mates do not give GW based tournaments the thumbs up, but I can speak for FoW in the UK. My 1st experience was last year at Reading and since then have taken part in a number of tournaments, I have always found my opponents friendly and in many cases (since I'm still fairly new to FoW) helpful in explaining my mistakes. The terrain has always been well presented and Armies always painted and I am now looking forward to this years Warfare @ Reading

So for the rest of that day and most of the next day, he poured his heart out to me about the shabby deal he'd been given by the referee and how he saw the other player bump the scenery across those two millimetres while moving his troops and was sure it was deliberate so his 40mm wide bases would no longer fit through the gap.

Human nature being what it is that's why squares are the answer. Competitive gaming attracts competitive people. Wargaming with rulers and templates is inherently inexact. Competitive people + ambiguous situations = arguments.

MB

By kevanG

As with all games, the competitive monster will arise in everyone if you see injustice, whether real or imagined or if it's linked with frustration at feeling like you have been unexpectedly hoodwinked.

Made all the worse because you've invested quite a bit into preparing for the event; getting the army list refined, painting up those last few figures, planning your travel and stayover (if needed), practice games and not least because you are anticipating it to be fun because this is something you enjoy… Then some numpty shatters your dream day …

Steve P

Hey Ralph – You need to make your plans to fly down from the great white north to Williamsburg to play in our WAB tournament in February!

TMP link

Chuck
Convention Director
2010 Williamsburg Muster
odms-club.com/convention

Campaigns are more fun….

I agree completely. Its a pity tournaments were not based around the situations you get into during campaigns, or in real life. Things like….making an orderly withdrawal in the face of a superior force. Shrinking your frontages to pass through a ravine or restricted area while under fire.
Opposed river crossings and etc.

The ability to handle these is the real skill. Any twit can fight battles on even points. Crikey even the village idiot could….

errrrrrrrrr…..

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm…..

Errr… SORRY Chuck!

Well,

How do I address this.

First we didn't plan on playing a tournament. We were going to hold an event of team play. The TS event staff then informed the person that was setting it up that he couldn't play and be the person to set it up. He also couldn't be a judge. At all of our events we follow the FoW rules for judging, meaning everyone usually gives a blind vote for painting and historical, for sportsmanship. All rules questions are generally not handled by a single judge or the event coordinator, but instead have always been handled by committee of the most knowledgable at the event. So we were shocked when TS staff stuck their nose into our event and told us what we could and couldn't do.

The event at TS was supposed to be fun, if anyone won anything it was a bonus. Usually we have everyone chip in for prize support, or some of us just bring stuff to give to the new players. The local crew are very non tournament style players.

Instead after three months of harrassment and back seat organizing from TS staff, the first person that was trying to setup the game bailed out because he would rather play and have fun than to deal with the TS people.

A very nice person from Montana took over and tried to set things up.

The TS people then changed our times repeatedly so that they could fit in a Huge WH40K event (only 4 total 40K players showed up, they set up 24 tables for them and set aside all the time and space for them).

The last two TS FoW events were single day and allowed everyone to play. This time we were slotted into a Friday p.m. slot starting at 4 p.m. (meaning the local people who didn't take days off from work had to make arrangements to get there early) The 4 o'clock kickoff time was changed from 5 or 6 p.m. just weeks before the event.

The second day of play was starting early Saturday Morning. So two of the local players that are disabled and unable to attend two day events were unable to play. I was one of those. I did not take my toys and go home. I just didn't get to play.

4 of the Montana players cancelled and all of the Portland players cancelled and almost half of the local players cancelled. Because of all the issues.

I read all the e-mails sent to the locals. We were told by TS staff to pretty much stop complaining and do what we say or else.

We never wanted a tournament style event in the first place. That was forced onto the event by TS. We will judge your stuff, we will have an awards ceremony on Sunday and if you are not there, you get nothing.

As for MidWar Monsters, I think the Portland people bailed because of that, since it was added at the last minute.

TS on the other hand provided some incredible prize support. I really wanted to get my hands on the Soviet Naval Infantry platoon from Resistant Roosters, that is a very nice modelling job. Most of the terrain and boards were very good or better. Over the last two years before this event I dealt with Terry Griner and never had any issues.

Next year if we run an FoW event at TS it will probably be an Historical large table event. Similar to what we will be doing on November 29th in Hayden, Idaho at Strategy & Games at the Silverlake mall.

We will be playing the MidWar December 1942 What if? Breakout from Stalingrad. With over 40' or 4' table in play. The edge of Stalingrad, and airfield, the grain towers. 6th Panzers Railroad disembarkation under fire. Weather, Night turns, fuel shortages. Hidden Minefields and many many other unique campaign style rules and ideas.

So I hope the planning for TS goes better next year. This year was a cluster for FoW at TS. Everyone I talked to said the TS event was a lot of fun, but the 40K part was a complete bust.

Good luck next year, hope to see everyone. I am working with my surgeon currently and hope to have surgical repairs done to my spine before summer comes so hopefully I will be able to play more and play longer.

Here is a link to our Spokane FoW site where all the TS stuff was posted, it is much to big to copy and paste.

:

link

You will find all the time changes, the changes from tournament to non tournament, the organizer getting asked to step down by TS staff, etc, etc, etc, etc

Sorry Quidveritas, I could not let it slide.

Everyone that went said they had a great time. The TS staff was great, the people were great and the FoW playing was fun.

The lead up to TS was a royal pain, that left most of us not wanting a taste. Some of us couldn't go because of the changes made, etc.

Chris

I have played tourneys in various periods and rules sets for years. You meet a lot of people you'd never meet otherwise, and are glad you met the vast majority.

I also play in and run campaigns and "event" games. You meet a lot of new people (tho not so many as in tourneys), most of whom are worth knowing and seeing again over the tabletop.

Both types of game have their fair share of jerks. The anti-tournament people need to calm down, stay on their meds (like the rest of us) and realise that jerks are all around, but so are potential new friends. Take the bad with the good, for heaven's sake, and quit slandering those of us foolish enough to enjoy something you don't care for.

well said

chris

"I haven't heard a peep out of the 40K tournament guys. Seems they would have the same issues? NO???"

- They haven't said much because they're all playing FoW and being pains in the rear in that system.

I've recently finished running the MOAB FoW tournament in Sydney Australia and my experience from the TO's side of the table was remarkably pleasant this year. What I have noticed over the past four years is the steady migration of 40k players across to FoW and on the whole they're all great chaps but they do bring some of their baggage with them. Especially around tournament gaming.

Tournaments are easy mass play events to organise, promote and get attendance for. My personal preference is not for competitive gaming events but I know full well that I would get a fraction of the attendees to, say, a Gazala Campaign Weekend than I would for a mid war Tournament.

I would sign up for Gazala, before a tournament.

That is why I am doing a Stalingrad breakout FoW event on November 29th.

Chris

"I haven't heard a peep out of the 40K tournament guys. Seems they would have the same issues? NO???"

"- They haven't said much because they're all playing FoW and being pains in the rear in that system. "

Soooooooo true. They cant understand the rules, they try to play like its 40k and whine when that doesnt work.

They are becoming a huge problem for FOW.

It must be your area, all of the 40k players that play FoW here are no problem what so ever. It seems that they embrace FoW for its difference from 40K.

That is my experience for the last 4-5 years

Chris

I did not participate in the event but everyone had a blast. There were a couple prizes but no where near everyone got a prize. There were no arguments, just some whiners in Portland that would not come up because the players up here let mid war monsters slide. I thought it was one of the better tournaments I have seen and excellently run. Like ogre said it was a pain in the rear in the start hence why Bill Noland stopped coordinating the event.

"Denial is a river in Egypt."

Very funny! Lol!