"Differences between WW1 and WW2 naval warfare" Topic

Ok this question will cause some laugh between the experts but… I am making some very simple (I mean simple!!!) rules for WW2 naval wargaming and I was wondering if I could use the same basic mechanics for WW1… apart from the obvious a) no carriers and b) no radar, can you tell me other significant differences? Thank you for your help.

Cruisers and Battleships etc carried float planes for patrolling and spotting as well.

In WW2 destroyers were bigger, and not just used as a torpedo launch platform.

Funnel smoke was a bigger issue affecting gunnery during WW1 because a lot of ships were still coal burning.

Wireless communications were a lot more primitive in WW1.

The biggest difference really though is the absence of any effective anti-shipping aircraft.

Communications and aircraft.

Dan

As the above, plus WWII had -
…bigger guns and improved targeting to extend the range of gunfire
…better submarines (they carried more torpedoes and dove deeper to hide)
…larger torpedoes (longer range, bigger warhead)
…more effective anti-submarine weapons
…no dirigibles; the air threat was small and fast-moving
…ships that were much better protected against underwater hits (torps, mines)
…faster ships of all types
…refueling and resupplying at sea
…almost no pre-dreads or other obsolete types thrown into front-line service
…more navies involved in combat, for all sides to learn lessons from

Include: Improved armour on the capital ships.

Aircraft in its infancy in WWI – primarily used for scouting vs. naval targets.

During WWII – aircraft were greatly improved, and much deadlier. A real threat to naval forces, rather than just an annoyance.

Not sure how well night attacks could be carried out during WWI, but perfected during WWII by many nations.

MTB's and MGB's become a serious threat to merchants, and other vessels during WWII.

I think a key factor for ship differences is armor placement.

WW1, more armor over greater areas, but less protective overall to critical areas. WW2, All or nothing armor (really after USS NEVADA laid down) that prevented some of the more effective hits.

Overall I think there was less likelyhood of catastropic hits in WW2 (at least on the more modern ships) and more likelyhood of a ship being "worn down" and scuttled/torpedoed as useless.

The armor issue is an important one- it really did change the way the ships *took* hits, and hence altered their viability in combat.

-Will

…so in my opinion, no, no real differences that would affect game mechanics in a major way. Strip out the airplanes, bump up critical hits and write new ship data and you're pretty much good to go.

I know several well regarded rule sets that use the same mechanics for WW1 and WW2, changing data as needed.

Surprised no one said radar…unless I missed it somewhere. US, Britain and to a lesser extent Germany and to an even lesser extent Japan used radar. Russia got some from US and Britain as well.

Just noticed no one said anything about aircraft carriers, either, though there was some discussion of aircraft.

Sundance, from the original poster:

Deserter: … apart from the obvious a) no carriers and b) no radar, can you tell me other significant differences?

Formations were greatly re-thought between the wars. WWI maintained fleets in line, looking a lot like age of sail fleets. WWII depended a lot more on surrounding the ships needing protection. Of course, exceptions abound -- the Bismark and Prince Eugen outrunning their support ships, for example.

Torpedoes.

Ships had them in WW1, or course (even capital ships), but they were not very good yet in comparison to the guns. In WW2 torpedoes had mad huge advances and were the main armament of destroyers and many cruisers.

I would say for a surface action (ships have already found each other and are ready to pound away) radar and torpedoes would be two critical components.

What support ships the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were outrunning?

Arrigo

Doh! Guess it pays to read the whole post…

I am making some very simple (I mean simple!!!) rules for WW2 naval wargaming

There is an old saying among writers that you should never write about what you dont know about.
If you have never been to Paris, dont write about Paris!

(Not trying to be unkind…just a rule I use myself when writing)

I would suggest that it would be much safer for you to download some of the free WW1 naval rules available of the internet and use those. You can then progress to your own once you've played some others and learnt more about the period.

Plunging fire was a bigger deal in WWII. Ships were designed to have thicker deck armor. Many older vessels were refitted with enhanced armor during the interwar period.
Grelber

No carriers? No, I suppose you are right. After all, the Royal Navy didn't have above twenty of the things in the Great War, so I suppose that isn't enough to count.

Aww Mal, come on, don't be a wet blanket! seriously, we have someone here embarking on what all of us back in the 70s and earlier did all the time and you are discouraging him?

WHACK! WHACK!

(that's my wiffle bat whacking you)

Deserter, dive in and enjoy the ride. It's wonderful
--
Tim

You silly Ditto Bird!

I am not discouraging him….merely suggesting an alternative approach! Starting with someone elses take on the issue and expanding from there sounds like a good way to go to me!

Oi!!!
And stop whacking me with that wiffle bat or I'll….I'll…..errrrr…hit you with my badminton raquet!

OW!
OW!

Stop it!

OW!

HELP I'M BEING ATTACKED BY A DITTO BIRD!!!

On a more serious note….

The introduction of naval air aside, the major difference is not technology but developed command and control. WW1 was very primitive, Command philosophy failed to develop along with technology. By WW2 command and control improved notably.

I find it interesting modern naval war gaming focuses simulating technology. I have not seen good rules reflecting C&C limitations.

Hi Dan:

Can you describe how the C&C made naval battles different? What kinds of C&C effects would you look for in a rules set?

On a more serious note….

Sorry dantheman, those of us who are full members often have so much fun messing about in the members lounge, attic, basement and etc that it's not hard to forget which part of TMP you are on.

Plunging fire at long range and better long range gunnery in WWII.

BB almost never used in groups of > 3 in WWII.