"The Worst Thing About Flames of War is..." Topic

I do play the game, and enjoy it, but my main gripes:

My top five FOW pet peeves (and again, I am a FOW player, so I take the good with the bad, as it's a convenient way to get in a fun game.)

1. Bad history passed off as fact, which colors every other aspect of the game.

2. No allowance for track shots/immobilizing shots/etc.. Particularly for armies that NEED this ability to win historical engagements.

3. Special national rules, heavily influenced by #1. A few great ones – The British "Cruiser Tank" rules, the American "Gun Stabilizers", the German "Extra Move" (called by various names by the various armies that use it.), Russian "Hens and Chicks", etc.

4. Lack of obsolete equipment availability. Ie: the assumption that organizations and weapons changed IMMEDIATELY as soon as the word was passed.

5. The often arrogant nature of the writers, critics, and fans of the rules. If you write for them, you can do no wrong. If you're a critic, then you're a useless rivet counter. If you're a fan, then you're an idiot fanboy.
On the other hand, it makes for awesome late night reading..;)

-A.

For me..
History is dubiously reported in places. Concentrate on oft reported fiction, rather than recorded fact.

Rules appear to be written to get player to buy specific models and characters.

Armies allow dissproportionate amounts of rare equipement.
The ground scaling doesn't work and rules over simplify things to basically allow vehicles and artillery pieces to be on the same table when infact, they probably be 4-5 tables away in reality.

That said, its reads like it designed to be a GW style ww2 game and thats what you get. If you like that, then its your baby!

Lastly, been mentioned to me by some players, that serious scale creep may be appearing with some models. One stating if it continued at present rate it would be a 20mm game very shortly..lol.

For all the above, its still popular in some clubs. However that said, in our club of 60 odd, I think only 3 people had forces and one of those recently sold his off at the Old Glory show.

Far more into "Rules of Engagement" in 20mm and 28mm scales.

The worse thing is that so many of them are out of the giggle home on early release!

Worst thing? Only one? Gosh…

It's lacking in so many areas, it's not worth the effort to play the game.

I've got another one. The %@$* resin Battlefront uses to make their aircraft from sucks serious fumes. The only primer I could get to stick to it was Testors Enamel. I went to three auto parts stores trying to find an enamel based primer and came up with diddly. I finally had to order the Testors primer from Squadron Mail Order. I got so frustrated I wanted to use the models as clay pidgeons, but refrained from doing so because they were so %@$* expensive. Okay rant over. Salut y'all!

Bruce the Texas Grognard

One thing that may help with that in the future is soaking them overnight in a water and dish-soap mixture. Lately, a lot of the resin minis from Battlefront seem to be covered with mold release solution – with the result that NOTHING will stick to them (well, super glue will, occasionally).

If you wash them, however, shouldn't be a problem. So long as they are cleaned, I've had no problem getting any kind of primer to stick to them.

-A.

One thing that may help with that in the future is soaking them overnight in a water and dish-soap mixture. Lately, a lot of the resin minis from Battlefront seem to be covered with mold release solution – with the result that NOTHING will stick to them (well, super glue will, occasionally).

If you wash them, however, shouldn't be a problem. So long as they are cleaned, I've had no problem getting any kind of primer to stick to them.

I did wash them first with Dawn mild dishwashing detergent and shot it with Rustoleum. Result primer didn't stick.

Tried again next time with a one day soak and thorough scrubbing with undiluted Simple Green and what I thought was an enamel primer from a local auto parts store. Result the same. AAUURRGGH!

Finally after a three day soak again in Simple Green. an extremely thorough scrub, and a light amount of Testors Enamel Primer it finally stuck.

Crikey! They have sunshine down there in lil'ol' Texas dont they?'
After washing in detergent put it out in the strong sunlight to dry. That will usually do the job.

Really hot sunshine can sometimes do it even without washing.

Well for starters Flames of War has nothing to do with World War II.

Oh it might use World War II models but that doesn't make it a World War II set of rules.

As others have stated it is not worth getting into and if you want to game World War II there are far better rules out there that give you a realistic World War II battle.

Oh and you do not need to keep buying rulebooks that have only a few words changes.

They are all about conning you out of your money just like GW is.

The fluff. There's more arguing about their silly fluff than the actual rule mechanics, even when other rules use nearly identical mechanics.

- Bob
(more last)

I have little experience with FoW and was not a big fan of the rules from what little experience I had but I have bought some BF miniatures and generally liked them. I decided to get the FoW Open Fire boxed set so I could look over the rules a little more in depth and I figured the 5 tanks in the box more than made up for the price even if the rules didn't do it for me. Well, the models are poor quality and all resin, they are not up to the same level of quality as the normal BF models. I have had the rule book for 5 days and the covers came off and the binding came apart. I guess that means I paid $36 USD bucks for 5 WWII themed dice.

It gives the lonely, desperate and out of touch something to complain about online – just look at DerekH.

Ooooh! Listen to her!

Be nice you two!

- Bob

I will say one thing about FOW that really turned me off big time. I guess all the literature is designed around gaming under tournament like conditions.

I've always played miniatures more as a way of recreating WWII battles. And sure you try and balance scenarios so people have fun, but you want it to be realistic. So it wasn't about just playing a fun game (i.e. Axis and Allies), it's about refighting WWII battles. Rules had to make sense in the context of representing what might have really happened in combat.

So there was a group of about 6 guys playing FOW at a local store and I asked the guy if I can get in on the game. He said I had to have my own figures.

I've been wargaming since the 1970's and in all that time, I've never had anyone tell me I couldn't play unless I brought my own figures. That kind of ticked me off. Maybe it's just my local group that was like that, but I get the idea, that this is the way it's done under this system.

Everywhere I played in the past, anyone could play as long as there was room. Because no one had everything. In our group we had 3 guys with a bunch of European 1/285. Another guy had a bunch of 1/72 and played CD rules. I had 1/285 N. Africa stuff. Another guy had a bunch of 15mm and used squad leader rules. Another guy played Modern, another sci-fi. Etc, etc. We had a ton of variety and people spent their money on what was most interesting to them. But when they put on a game, everyone got to play. And it works great.

And we had guys who hadn't invested in anything, and we still let them play. That's just the way it always was.

So I have something like 2,000 tanks, infantry, buildings, etc. in 1/285, and boxes full of terrain makers beautifully crafted to recreate N. Afrika battles. With that kind of investment, why would I want to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on FOW 15mm so I could be allowed to play their WWII game? P*ss off I say.

So there's my rant. Nothing against against the merchandise or rules. I think it's all great looking stuff and high quality. I guess this generates a whole lot more sales than the networking system I'm used to, but it s*cks in terms of what type of wargaming community it creates.

I will say they have way too many rule books. I'm used to operating off one set of rules for the entire war!! What's so complicated that they have to have that many books?

Wargaming is a social event. It brings people together with similar interests. THis seems like an anti-social variation.

So how is it in other groups? Does everyone have to have their own miniatures in order to compete in the tourny? I guess this must come from the influence of WH40K? Sells a load of merchandise I guess. Guess that's good for stores.

danlewistn wrote:

[…] I will say one thing about FOW that really turned me off big time. I guess all the literature is designed around gaming under tournament like conditions.

What do you mean by literature? The literature about FoW, or that produced by Battlefront? There's a definite focus on the points-based tourney play in the rulebook, but none of that applies or detracts from just playing scenarios.

[…] So there was a group of about 6 guys playing FOW at a local store and I asked the guy if I can get in on the game. He said I had to have my own figures.

I'd say that's a local cultural thing. Most guys I know do have their own figures, but there are several of us that do have enough stuff to gladly loan some to new players. There are also guys that like to run scenario games using their own figures for both sides. My personal preference is to use my own stuff, but I've run "foreign" armies before. Could it be that they just didn't have enough to loan out? Also, the crowd at the store might have mattered. I would be hesitant to loan stuff out to a 10 year old that mommy dropped off at the store for free babysitting while she went shopping. A policy of "no loaners" might make sense if the group plays near a mall.

[…] Maybe it's just my local group that was like that, but I get the idea, that this is the way it's done under this system.

That's the sort of thing you can change easily by leading through example. Your approach sounds much more laid back and enjoyable. I try to be very welcoming of new players (regardless of the game), and others tend to adapt the same attitude once they realize it helps grow the game. There's nothing about "the system" that controls the social interactions of players. The players do that.

[…] So I have something like 2,000 tanks, infantry, buildings, etc. in 1/285, and boxes full of terrain makers beautifully crafted to recreate N. Afrika battles.

Is there anything that prevents you from playing using your 1/285 6mm stuff? It sounds like you could easily hold a "big battle" game on the same size tables they play on that would be pretty impressive. Lots of people play FoW using 6mm figures with no other game adjustments. Lead by example and let others play with your toys. You may find they'll let you use theirs next time. All those lessons most of us learned on the playground in our early years apply at the gaming table. Sadly, there seem to be no shortage of guys who missed those lessons.

With that kind of investment, why would I want to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on FOW 15mm so I could be allowed to play their WWII game?

Because collecting this stuff is addictive perhaps? You certainly don't need to. It sounds to me like you just need to find a like-minded group of players to game with.

So there's my rant. Nothing against against the merchandise or rules. I think it's all great looking stuff and high quality. I guess this generates a whole lot more sales than the networking system I'm used to, but it s*cks in terms of what type of wargaming community it creates.

The players have to create their own community. I've seen very different "feels" to groups even throughout my region (NE US). If a group is hosted at a shop, then not surprisingly, that shop owner might be interested in generating some local sales, and might not be particularly welcoming of outside products. In this day of razor-thin margins, I suppose I can understand. We do try to support the shops we frequently play at.

I will say they have way too many rule books. I'm used to operating off one set of rules for the entire war!! What's so complicated that they have to have that many books?

There's only one rule book. The rest are focused on various units. You certainly do not need all, nor even most of them. Very little changes game-wise between them. There are some silly rules associated with the heroes. Fortunately, I know very few players that use heroes frequently. The mid-war monsters do annoy me, I must admit! I end up buying most of the books because my college-age sons do still play, but most of my gaming is focused on 2 or 3 of the books.

Wargaming is a social event. It brings people together with similar interests. THis seems like an anti-social variation.

An anti-social group, to be sure!

So how is it in other groups? Does everyone have to have their own miniatures in order to compete in the tourny? I guess this must come from the influence of WH40K? Sells a Bleeped text load of merchandise I guess. Guess that's good for stores.

There is that. If you're playing at a store, you might see more of that. The local shops seem to be run by practical minds. They're OK with seeing stuff played that wasn't purchased at their shop, so long as they get something back for all the wear-and-tear on their tables and scenery at the end of the day.

- Bob

Re Bail out;

from Derek H:

Re what the designers of Flames of War mean by "bailed out" I offer the following quotes from page 76 of the latest edition of the rules.

A tank is a thick metal shell filled with flammable fuel and explosive ammunition and their crews like being burnt alive about as much as the next guy. So when they hear a round penetrate their tank they usually jump out as fast as possible. After their sure that the tank isn't going to burn they'll get back in and carry on.

I love the idea that the crew discover that their tank has been penetrated by a round when they hear it. You'd have thought the red hot bits of metal flying all around the place would have given them a clue.

The rules do describe some other situations which could be covered by the bailed out status, but then go on to say

Mostly, bailed out means that the crew have abandoned the vehicle and are waiting to see if it is going to explode or whether it's safe to get back in.

These clear statement of the designers intent are so obviously daft that many FoW players choose to completely reject them and rationalise the bailing out mechanic as something else.

I got the book for two reasons: First, i was looking for a late-night eye candy inspirational book. for when the brain is too tired for anything else. Second, i was curious. there is so much love/hate about it that i had to see.

I went to P.76 and here is the end of the "bailing out" rule, that Derek conveniently left out:

(…)they'll get back in and carry on.

In flames of war, we describe any armoured vehicle that isn't operational, but at the same time isn't obviously destroyed, as bailed out.

This covers a large range of situations. A tank may be completely wrecked, but because it's not burning neither side can tell what's happening, or the crew could still be unharmed inside the tank, but stunned from the impactof high-velocity shells. Mostly, bailed out means that the crew have abandonned their tank and are waiting to see if it is going to explode, or whether it's safe to get back in.

If the designers obviously had the idead that bailing out meant, well… bailing out, they were absolutely clear that it could also represent any situation where the tank is only suppresed, or stunned… Take any rulebook, and get incomplete citations from it, you'll see as much weird stuff as this bailing out story…

Now, to the point, what i dislike most about Flames of war is the incredible amout of bad faith the haters show. I mean, even Games Workshop threads do not come close…

All this "not even come close to anything that ressemble WWII" talk… FOW have pinning, it's impossible to completely eliminate infantry in hard cove by small arms fire, scouting/ambushing, defensive fire during assaults, vulerable unsupported tanks … it obviously does not ressemble anything close to something remotely similar to a WWII game.

I know all the people I play games with. They are nice folks and are mostly interested in history. We play organised scenarios, never points. But most of all, I know that i'll have a good time with them. FOW designers and fans are involved in tournaments, and you know it. These people like it that way. Good for them. You walk in a game store and play with them, while knowing this, then it's your problem. don't blame the game for this, blame yourself.

I may never play this game because it's not really what i'm looking for; not detailed enough, IgoUgo is getting old for me as an old GW gamer, and many other issues that are more or less important to ME. But this can be said of many games… ROE, Rapid fire… yet no one is bitching these games…

edit; typo

Yes, Derek does that. :)

- Bob

Thanks for your comments Bobstro. As to using my miniatures and terrain to put on a game, I plan on doing that. what kind of looking to break in a new set of rules. Would like to find that like minded group of individuals.

Am moving to Raleigh N. Carolina in the next few months. Found a real nice store in Knightdale already and plan on getting something going there.

I've been out of wargaming for many years, and have a desire to get back in it again. Been using this forum to catch up on what's all's changed, what's new, what works, what doesn't, etc. Like to find that 'perfect' rule set (or at least perfect enough for me anyhow).

Elitism: High quality troops and equipment is always worth the price. Conscripts are always a watse of time (unless they come as fearless then they are overpowered)

Machine Gun Anti-tank guns: Light Anti-tank guns can mow down infantry in the open better than heavy machine guns

Entrenchements as armour: One of the best ways to take out infantry that is dug in is anti-tank rifles sniping

Recce isn't: Similar to elitism, light armoured vehicles and armoured cars serve no function. They have no practical ability to scout or reveal ambushes. Don't bring an armoured car to a tank battle. I've had whole 'platoons' or armoured cars wiped out in one burst of a concealed heavy machine gun.

I have good luck -- though not particularly high survival -- with my conscripts. If you use veterans correctly, yes, they will tend to do well. But there won't be many of them, and you can't afford many mistakes.

The ATG are RoF 3. The HMG are RoF 6. The HMG still server a definite purpose. Is 3 too high? They should have a faster rate of fire than tank guns, and most of those are 2.

ATR and .50 cal. MGs can work well against dug-in infantry. The ATR were used as anti-personnel at times, so this doesn't seem overly odd. If anti-tank guns were used this way, perhaps so.

My armored cars see plenty of use as recce. They are as useful as any other recce unit at revealing ambushes and lifting GtG. I'm not sure what you mean here!

- Bob

I can live with every single complaint here because it is a fun game………..except……….The Special Characters!!!

Graf Von Totten and his disappearing-reappearing Panther.

Comissaar Boris Klandicov and his miracle penal company.

The invincible, hero worshipped, bagpiper Scooty McDougel.

I am waiting for Sgt. Rock and his band of heros backed up by Jeb in his haunted Staurt Tank blowing away Tigers, turret ring hit every time, at 1,000 meters! LOL

Nazrat spelled backwards equals Tarzan, is that Frank?

Oh the parking lot syndrome……

My Soviet 120mm Mortars just love those bunched up targets.

Now my opponents spread out.

Moko54 wrote:

I can live with every single complaint here because it is a fun game………..except……….The Special Characters!!!

Yes, agreed. The heroes were always a bit silly, and getting sillier. Fortunately, they rarely seem to be worth the points.

The thing that's annoying me the most lately is the local trend for 600 point events and fast-play games (get as many in X hours as possible). I don't go for the ADHD style of play, so I'm just skipping local events using that format.

- Bob

Sorry Bob confused ADHD?

My local group, outside of campaigns, plays 1,500 to 2,000 point games and we get in two to three battles a night. Probaly because we all know the rules so well.

In general I do game wih a good bunch, we don't have the King Tiger problem, and the army lists look the part of what one would expect to find on most WWII battlefields.

Odd as this may sound but some 'Power Gamers' have shown up from time to time and the group usually points them at me. I have a knack for identifying tactical weakinesses in a persons army and exploiting it (and being a bit crazy with my Soviet Motor Rifle Battalion helps)

That said I have yet to find a solution to the 'special characters' (Barkmann being my favorite pet peeve), that can be solved tactically. In effect my opinion is special characters are for people who do not know basic tactics, and cannot think of any other way to win. Rude as this may sound, and to some extent it is, that has been my experience.

King Tigers, JS-IIs, SS, and any other non-special character units can be defeated tactically within the scenarios of FoW, and it is one of the things about the game I do like. IE thinking of a tactical way of beating these 'tough' units/armies.

Funny as this may sound but the toughest opponents I have ever faced in FoW one fields Italians and the other Wermacht Panzergrenadiers with PzIVs, and/or PzIIIs!

It also helps that both of them are also very good tactical players, a situation I do enjoy.

We have played since the game came out and I don't remember anyone using a "special character", I don't know why we have never tried them, but none of them seemed that great to me.

As far as Tigers/King Tigers, the last time I played against a Tiger Company with US Armor, I just drove over and captured the objective while he was blowing up my shermans, and I won the game on turn 3 or so. I used to play a Panther company in mid-war tournaments (8 panthers), and it was hard to win the scenarios, especially against dug in infantry. If you keep your mind on the objectives I think it mitigates some of the power lists.

We have played since the game came out and I don't remember anyone using a "special character", I don't know why we have never tried them, but none of them seemed that great to me.

Lucky Man, and I mean it!

Some are overpowered (Barkmann/Bag Piper) and some are lame (The Russian Tanker Chick) so it goes both ways.

We game each week at a games store FoW both to promote the game (And get a nice discount for doing it) and at various homes and induct new players to the hobby. When at the store we get 'tournament' players that will come in with their 'power' army with 'special characters'. In one game I killed Barkmann three times I just didn't realize there were that many extra panthers laying around for him to purloin!

It is just aggreavating. We have far more fun playing without the special characters.

Heck one game a 'tournament' player fielded King Tigers in his killer army. A Brit player fielding a Motor Company won and all the King Tigers killed was a couple of trucks LOL.

Once again we enjoy the game so much that we can ignore some of its quirks.

Moko54 wrote

[…] Sorry Bob confused ADHD?

Attention Deficit Hyperactive Disorder, or "hyper" in general. There's been a push for these "low-point, play as many as you can because you might get bored" games locally, and I hate those types of games. I'd like to actually remember the game at the end of the evening, and maybe even talk about it.

I've been lucky facing the "hero" armies, and haven't had any problems. One of our best players locally fields low-power Italians and cleans up with 'em.

- Bob

FoW is one of the few games I have played that doesn't 'punish' the Italians for 'some' of their poor officers.

In the hands of a skilled player the Italians do just fine, and my friend from the comment above is a skilled Italian player and I love facing him.

Ah, wait until the Early War comes around. Try fielding Belgians, eh? La Belle France calls to me as I am painting up my poilu for the rifle company. I need some soixante quinze for AT teeth. That will give the Boche something to think about.

Allons y!!!

"The Worst Thing About Flames of War is…"

The fact that as soon as anyone raises a criticsm, FoW players accuse them of being 'puritan luddites who don't want anyone to enjoy wargaming, and only play rules that hurt'. The thing that has put me off seeking out a game to join in is those who defend it.

Last Hussar, to some extent I agree, especially on their web site.

I have brought up 'inconsistanceies' within both their research and their rules (And mind you thier research ain't bad) and have been bashed for correcting them.

Or have 'suggested' a better way to design a rule or situation to put it better in line with history and been 'shouted down' as a nay sayer of the game for doing it.

Sadly all I was trying to do was improve the game NOT create a better gaming situation for MY army. However I have found 'power gamers' on their web site that do want to create a better situation for their favorite army (Usually German) and get lauded for it.

Oh well I still enjoy playing the game with my 'real' gaming friends.

I gave up on their forums back when Crazy Ivan was running rampant as a moderator… and unfortunately missed his crash & burn fall from grace. I've gone back a couple of times, but the old enthusiasm is not easily recaptured.

I did quit worrying so much about the negative feedback when my (then) 13 year old son started posting regularly. Of all the voices there, I suspect only a small percentage are adults in any jurisdiction. I just don't let that color my perception of the rules or the guys I do play against in real life.

- Bob

Hmmm, I've had a look at the various "special characters" over the past week or so. I do have to correct my above statement… we have used Whittman before in our group, but it was in the historically based scenario.

"In one game I killed Barkmann three times I just didn't realize there were that many extra panthers laying around for him to purloin!"

I think you were ripped off in this game, because the way I read the rules, if he is destroyed then Barkman can either commandeer a surviving tank in his platoon, or take a 5+ chance to reappear each turn in a tank at the workshop. Once he reappears at the workshop once, it is removed, so he couldn't do it more than once. Personally, it would be a tough decision whether to go for the panther in reserves or keep him in a tank to guarantee the use of his increased abilities RIGHT NOW in the platoon.

I read about the bagpiper in the Scots late war .pdf, I don't know about the rules in other books, but it didnt seem that bad.

As far as the famous Fallschirmjager necromancer, we will likely use him as part of a series of games based on Market-Garden. Basically he can reorganize surviving individuals from teams efficiently so he gives a 4+ save to teams within 6". This is from memory but I don't think it helps in the assault. Either way, it doesn't seem too out of line to me, IIRC you can do sort of the same thing in ASL, at least it's intended to represent the same thing.

So the worst thing for me is people who complain about "teleporting tanks", "special characters", "hub to hub tanks" etc without knowing the actual rules.

The GW mentality and extensive supplements instead of free releases on the website. overcompliccated.

Polecat, I am not arguing with you in this post, only trying to clarify a point.

The entire concept of 'special characters' shows a weakness in players that depend on these rules to save their bacon in games rather then their own game skill (Bad way to put it I know but is all I can think of right now, sorry).

I never will use them and prefer to let my own 'average' troops become famous all by themselves. To this day my oponents fear my SU-76s more then any other unit in my Soviet Army list! Nothing special they just seem to always be in the right place at the right time, and make a better percentage of their rally/save rolls then most (My favorite Italian opponent calls them the 'Evil Ones'). To me this is far more fun, and interesting, then letting some game rule do it for me.

Basically Weak/Power players need them, good game players don't. For FoW it is a way to sell minis though.

"extensive supplements instead of free releases on the website."

Called capitalism my friend…you cannot fault a company for making profits.

You are free not to buy them and play another set of rules?

SFC Retired

ummm, NOTHING! It's fine for what it is, a game….

Points based gaming…

Dislike the turn Sequence. Didn't like it with 40k still don't like it with FOW.