"Prince Rupert's & Prince Maurice's Firelocks?" Topic

Hi All,

does anyone know…
1) approx size of these units

2) what colours were carried by them?

3) that they wore red coats?And if so what sources site this?

4) any of their operational history?

thanks in advance

Chas
Lancashire- uk

Hi Chas,

as far as I know there's no record of the unit sizes, but likely one or 2 companies each. (2 majors are recorded for Rupert's firelocks, but one was killed at the storming of Leicester, so the other might be his replacement).

Colours- unknown

Maurice's firelocks I don't know coat colour. Rupert's were redcoats (in Reid's Offices and Rgts, but not sure which primary source this came from – perhaps accounts of storm of Leicester?).

Maurice's apparently raised 1645 in Severn Valley area, unsure whether at Leicester and Naseby, at Denbigh Green and Stow-on-the-Wold.

Rupert's possibly raised as early as 1643, Shrewsbury garrison, Abingdon Jan 45 (where Irishmen from the unit were captured and executed by Browne), storm of Leicester then probably Leicester garrison but possibly Naseby. Garrison of Bristol, garrion of Oxford.

Cheers Timbo,

many thanks for this- currnetly painting the unit at the mo' and wanted to amke sure I was getting my facts right before I finished them

have the Reid book, but cant find it!!

ta once again

Chas

One thing you can be sure of – the uniform would change in 1645 as supplies became shorter and the coat became ragged. So red but patched and varied.

Hi all,

agree, would be a tattered lot after the various sieges and surrenders no doubt!

One thing which I vaguely heard about was a black standard mentioned in association with Rupert at Leicester, but would imagine this was more likely his HQ flag (neere five yards long) as at Marston Moor.

On Rupert's firelocks I find it hard to believe that they weren't involved in eg Newark or York March if indeed they were raised in '43. I guess this might be a case where there's no evidence for or against, unless someone has come across anything?

Hi Timbo

yeah very strange not on the march to York- certainly a 'showcase' unit such as firelocks would be very high profile- but no mention at any point that I've ever come across.

Possibly, just possibly, could they have been part o fthe garrison for the recently captured Liverpool? The garrison included Nicholas(?)Byrons regiment, all musket, raised from various garrisons in Ireland- possibly lumped in with this regiment

what you think?

Chas

Hi Chas certainly possible,

I guess its the usual story for ECW of insufficient evidence either way (or at least as-yet-undiscovered evidence).

On t'interwebs a while ago someone proposed that Washington's dragoons didn't make it to MM but were left back in Scouseland. And there was a reference to the bluecoats being sent back but agree this was more likely to be (whichever) Byron's.

Does make you wonder about the musketeer blocks in the cavalry wings at MM but I guess they wete a little too busy at the time to document company-sized units.

It's always semed a bit suspicious to me that units such as Chaytor's etc were recruited so quickly in Lancashire in 44 but I suppose you never know.

On the firelocks themselves, their traditional function was guarding the artillery train. However, with the recent example of Capt Sandford they seem to have morphed into 17th century SAS. The key advantage of the firelock in skirmishes was that it wasn't obvious (glowing match) in night ops. As such firelocks were preferred both for sentinels and raiders.

Tell me about the lack of evidence!!

I teach the subject at Uni from time to time and take students over to Naseby- factual accounts say one thing, archelogical evidence says another, and neither supports the other!

So a problem emerges were people are only too willing to accept the latest idea no matter how fantastical it sounds

Funny you should mention Washington's dragoons- never really thouhg about them at all!nor the musket blocks

if at Marston Moor, they must have got away in pretty good shape, only to re-appear at Montgomery and garrison at Worcester (without horses i think) and no mention of them with Langdale at Ormskirk

but then again, how do Ruperts infantry regiment get away and still remainingood shape to be a viable unit in 1645 and maintain a good vetran element?

Waht do you know about Chaytors?

I always understood that Ruperts northern stratergy at the start of the '45 campaigning season is unpopular due to his lack of sucsess in recruitning inthe north west the previous year.

This thing about firelocks being special forces, I'm not too keen on.

Most of them are from Ireland, or officered by vetrans from Ireland, Scotalnd or from the European Wars. SO they have the experince to do the assaults etc. Ops in Irelands whernt exactly traditional liner 17th cent warfare. basically just hard vetran units really, and not spetnatz as suggested by the likes of Barrett and a certain palstic figure company!(although their firelocks do paint up nice)

But thats my two pence

Im into the York march at the mo', as I'm just finishing off a 28mm army for this- lookign for rules at the mo. Like lilly banners and forlorn hope, not a fan of 1644 or warhammer

Go BTLB, you'll be happier.

think you might be right about lilly banners- would be nice if the LOA produced a ecw varient- its not as though there will be no demand for ecw stuff over the next year or so, with allt he palstics being knocked out

Barry if you are reading , drop what you are doing and get writing!

Hello all,

raggedroyalist, agree on the conflicting evidence! It was certainly simpler (though I'm sure, er.. wrong-er) in the old days when the Brig was the only easily available source. I must say I enjoyed Malcolm Wanklyn's analysis of some of the newer Naseby theories.

Yes the aftermath of Marston Moor is a bit odd, why did Newcastle's foot disappear? (I'm guessing only a subset were at the last stand in somewhere-that-wasn't-White Syke Close). When you look at Essex's foot surrendering at Lostwithiel they reappear (well half-or-so) at II Newbury, maybe because this was their safest option (stay together to Plymouth, shipped to Portsmouth for refit iirc) in unfriendly country far from home. Newcastle's foot could on the other hand just go home themselves maybe?

Er, nothing specific on Chaytor's I just thought it a bit odd that Rupert's recruiting went so well in Lancashire, especially as Derby seemed to struggle to find men the year before. Washington's – yes that's their story as I understand it.

Yeah SAS/Spetznatz is a bit overstated for firelocks! ;-) I still think that the lack of burning match must have been a real advantage for the small-war night actions though. IIRC Sandford's men changed sides and joined Brereton after Nantwich.

Hi Tmbo, I work with Malcolm on occasion, he was my tutor at Uni, did two dissertations with him on the civil war, great fun to work with.

its funny watching him having it out about Naseby with some of the Battlefields Trust team

I think most of Newcastles foot either went lookign for Royalist garrisons to find refuge or went home- Rupert leaves the area, and Newcastle leaves the country, which means there is no leadership in the area to gravitate to. The other remains- the horse, moves away so swiftly out of the area to offer no nucleus to work with

the others ie Ruperts foot re appear else were because they have to move out of Yorkshire anyway to go home so to speak

Have you read 'the road to marston moor' good info in there, adn Stepehen Bull has a new book out in October about the war in Lancashire, found it the other day on Amazon

hmm, should get out more really!
Chas

Hi Chas,

I guess you have the right of it regarding the Northern foot.

Road to MM is next on my list!

Interested to hear that the Lancashire book is coming out, will be great to have someone tie all the little 42/43 encounters together in a good narrative.

Cheers,

Tim

Lancashire 43 – take a look at the account of Capt Robinson for first hand accounts of actions in Lancashire. He provides the only first hand account I'm aware of the battle of Whalley (or Sabden Brook as I always knew it as a lad)in April 1643. My account comes from the Chetham Society Victorian reprint and it is available on the web through one of the non copy right archives. I don't have the link handy at the moment but I'll post it when i get a free moment.

Nice one Elenderil!

try this link

printed it off whislt the boss wasnt looking!

link

but think Stephen Bulls new book on ECW Lancs looks like it will be worth while

Chas

Cheers rr, that'll keep me out of trouble for a bit!

The article I had in mind is "A discourse upon the course of the war in Lancashire" (Unknown author but possibly the Parliamentarian Captain Edward Robinson of Kirkham)and dates from 1652. The version I have access to was printed by the Chetham Society in 1864 and edited by William Beaufort from a manuscript copy in the Earl of Derby's library. The period account gives a broadly chronological account of the war and gives a detailed account of the Battle of Whalley in April 1643. It has all the usual issues of bias etc that we have come to know and love from documents of the period. I'm struggling to find my link to the Chetham society reprint and a search isn't turning it up. I have a copy of the part about the battle of Whalley as a word document in case of emergency.

I'm looking forward to Stephen Bull's Book. If you need something to read before thats available there is always E Broxap's "The Great Civil War in Lancashire" which is one of the late victorian early Edwardian county histories of the war.

Found a link link the spelling of War as Warr was throwing the search engine out. My link must be on the laptop not this machine.

Excellent, thanks Elenderil!