"Best Polish/Lith Opponents 1600-1650?" Topic

Trying to resist urge to buy a bunch of Winged Hussars, and my effort with likely fail. That said, trying to determine the best or more versatile opponent to get, for the most historical options and also what would make the most interesting match ups..

The Russians/Moscovites fought Poles from 1605-18, 1632-34.
The Swedes fought the Poles from 1600-11, 17-18, 21-25, 26-29.
The Ottomans from 1620-21
Cossacks in Rebellion most of the time

I like the idea of the Ottomans, as I have always wanted Ottomans. However, there really was not much warfare between the two in the period and the Siege of Vienna is outside the TAG Poles range.

Looking for thoughts and pros/cons.

Swedes, 19years to war!!!

I'll second the Swedes – they are there for the long haul.

First, you're missing the last Swedish invasion, the Deluge, from 1655 to 1660. As far as the Cossacks go, while there were minor unplesantness leading up to 1648 that rebellion was the worst. After their initial success against incompetent Polish noble leadership the Cossacks had to throw themselves into the arms of either the Ottoman/Tatars or the Russians to survive.

The stuggle with the Ottoman Empire spanned the entire 17th century, boiling up and then receding…the more interesting campaigns being in the 1660's and extend up until the Siege of Vienna in the early 1680's.

Best opponent…depends, as far as numbers go, the Turks posed the biggest threat…as far as quality I would vote for the Swedes. Without effective leadership the Cossacks were easily contained and the Russians simply took advantage of everyone else fighting the Poles when the time was ripe.

db

The original poster was interested in the 1600-1650 period, hence neither the Swedish, Muscowites or Ottoman wars of the later half of the 17th Century were mentioned.

The Swedes of the later 1620's are the only force which can give the Commonwealth regular troops a tough fight without having a significant advantage in numbers. At least if the rules accurately portray the combat effectivness of the forces. Ottomans & Muscowites do get a huge artificial boost in most rules so in pratice you should be able to use two forces of failrly similar size without too much problem.

For a colourfull and overlooked period you could take a look at the private troops of Commonwealth Magnates which supported False Dimtri II in 1608-1610. You'll have a interesting mix of Poles, Russians and Cossacks on one side and can oppose it with the Russo-Swedish army of Jacob De la Gardie and Mikhail Skopin-Shuisky.
The Swedes were a mix of native Swedes & Finns together with increasing number of French, German, Scots and English mercenaries, many f whom were battle hardend veterans of the Wars in France and the Netherlands.

The Tartars were a continual opponent throughout the period aswell, as they always raided the borders, even through the fabled "golden peace" period 1630s onwards. Can always be expanded to Ottomans.

The Swedes 'cause you get to have Gustav Adolph the Great, Lion of the North!

The Tartars were a continual opponent throughout the period as well, as they always raided the borders, even through the fabled "golden peace" period 1630s onwards. Can always be expanded to Ottomans.

I think Tartars would make a great skirmish game opponent. Or else, a multi-player skirmish campaign game where the aim is to guess which track or ford the Tartars are going to invade by and then to block or pursue them. Tartars were not that effective as a formed battlefield enemy. Their aim in life was pillaging and taking slaves and booty, not slugging it out.

I think Tartars would make a great skirmish game opponent. Or else, a multi-player skirmish campaign game where the aim is to guess which track or ford the Tartars are going to invade by and then to block or pursue them. Tartars were not that effective as a formed battlefield enemy. Their aim in life was pillaging and taking slaves and booty, not slugging it out.

You are right. This is really an untapped area of wargaming IMO. Parallels have been drawn with the "wild lands" of the Commonwealth and the "wild west" of America.

Daniel,

First, it was not clear that 1650 was the end of the period the poster was interested in, particularly since he suggests that between the periods he mentions and the siege of Vienna "there really was not much warfare"…my point is that there was indeed plenty to keep him busy, particularly with regards to the Turks.

As far as Vienna being outside the TAG line other than the issue of how the wings were attached to the hussars I'm not sure what else he might mean.

db

The Topic is named "Best Polish/Lith Opponents 1600-1650?"
Its' hard to state it more clearly than that.

Y'all are wussy-men. The proper answer to this question is "paint them all of course!" :)

You are right. This is really an untapped area of wargaming IMO. Parallels have been drawn with the "wild lands" of the Commonwealth and the "wild west" of America.

The parallels are overwhelming. They both have settlers, wagon trains, isolated outposts held by small groups of infantry, marauding Indians/ Tartars and flying columns of cavalry to ride to the rescue!

The scenario I was considering would be 3-sided. 1 player would operate the Tartars. The Tartars would have a choice of 7 or 8 tracks to enter their target pillaging territory. The tracks would have fords and/ or bottlenecks.

There would be 2 other players. 1 would operate the Muscovites and the other would operate the Poles. They would of course hate each other almost as much as they hate the Tartars.

These forces would have militia infantry – low quality, but good enough to hold forts or impromptu field fortifications. Of course, the infantry would not be enough to block ALL the paths that the Tartars could choose. So there would be guessing and counter-guessing on all sides.

As well, the Poles and Muscos would have flying columns of light cavalry to ride pursuit or rescue missions.

Throw in some personality conflicts among the various "Big Men" and the beautiful daughter of 1 of the local nobs who has been captured and is potentially destined for some harem or other in Istanbul……….

Pilum's right…paint them all.

db

The scenario I was considering would be 3-sided. 1 player would operate the Tartars. The Tartars would have a choice of 7 or 8 tracks to enter their target pillaging territory. The tracks would have fords and/ or bottlenecks….

Sounds fantastic, I wish I had something like this in my local group.