"Calpe Saxons Advice Wanted" Topic

I was thinking of building a corps or Saxons, using the new Calpe figures, for In The Grand Manner. My thought was to have 10-12 btns of Saxons (36 figures each) and a battery of artillery- 8pdrs? Then, for the cavalry, I would use the absolutely awesome Connoisseur Saxon Zastrow and Garde du Corps figures for a cavalry brigade.

What year(s) uniform do the Calpe Saxons cover? 1810 to 1814?

Did the Saxons have a similar battalion organization as the French (i.e. 6 companies with 1 light and 1 grenadier company)?

Did Saxon grenadiers converge as they did in 1806 and prior years, or did they remain with the parent regiment?

What is the deal with the cowhide shako covers? Should I include this pose or maybe just have a few in each battalion. I'm not keen to paint multicolored cow hides.

Finally, can anyone direct me to a source for flag information to go along with these very nice figures for the appropriate years of the Napoleonic era?

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They`re nice figures Fritz.You should maybe try asking on the Calpe site?
Regards,

I just bought a large lot of Calpe Prussians, superb sculpts and casting!! My plan is to do Von Bulow's Corps at Waterloo.

As far as I'm aware the Grenadiers were still converged. The oob's on napoleon-series.org have grenadier battalions listed on them.

1812
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1813
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This page on a topic on the general de brigade forum gives details of the parent regiments the grenadiers came from in 1813 so you'll be able to work out the facing colours for each grenadier battalion
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I got all of these links from this very helpful blog which has a lot more links worth looking at as well
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Fritz, all of the Saxon infantry units I've seen using ITGM are 32 man battalions. I'm not believe this reflects their correct organisation and it could save you a bit of painting.

Bdr.

Prussian and now Saxon site

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GMB makes the flags already. The list is available on the triangle miniatures website.

Can't help on the cowhide.

They will look really sharp. You should do it. I have lead for two brigades of Prussians (20 battalions + cav and artillery). I have 8 battalions, 2 cav regiments, and a battery painted.

I believe they would be 2 battalions of 32 figs per regiment with the grenadiers converged into separate battalions.

In Reynier's corps at the start of the fall 1813 campaign the organization was 2 divisions each of two infantry brigades plus artillery support. Each infantry brigade had 4 battalions of infantry and 3 of the brigades had a converged grenadier battalion. Each artillery support consisted of 2 batteries with 6 6lb and 2 8lb howitzers.

The cavalry support only consisted of the Saxon hussars and prinz clemens lancers, sorry. The cavalry did have 2 saxon horse batteries though (4 6lb and 2 8lb howitzers). And the division had a 12lb saxon foot battery in reserve.

Dear Alte Fitz
Next month will be published

Stephen Summerfield (2008) Saxon Artillery 1733-1827, Partizan Press.

This has over 40 OOBs and full information about the artillery.

The Grenadiers were administrative part of the Infantry Regiment but did not fight as such. You will see details in the OOBs. The Grenadiers with the same facing were combined as a general rule. In effect they would have two coys with Brass Buttons and two coys with White buttons so this may be seen in 28mm.

The M1810 Ordnance by Calpe are superb showing the unique nature of the guns from the plans that I supplied them. My favourite is the M1766 4-pdr Schnellfuergeschutze that were used by the infantry 1766-1806 and 1812-Early 13. The other is the M1766 Granadstuck that was used by field artillery 1766-1811 and the horse artillery 1806-Early 1812. May also have been used in the 1813 campaign.

Stephen

Wow. Calpe is going to make all this ordnance?

Wow. The list of things to come is exciting. So I will start with 32 figure musketeer battalions, flags from GMB and then by the time I get some of these painted, the Calpe artillery should be available.

@Custor, @Adam: thanks for linking to my blog. I'm gradually collating together as many Saxon resources as I can. Watch this space!

@Fritz: going back to your original questions at the top of this thread:

a). Yep, the Calpe figures cover the 1810-14 period but are mainly aimed at 1813 (the uniforms continued to evolve is small subtle ways after 1810).

b). Saxon battalions were not organized the same way as the French. Each regiment was composed of eight musketeer companies and two grenadier companies. The musketeers operated as two battalions of four companies each while the grenadier companies were converged with a pair of grenadier companies from another regiment to form a grenadier battalion.

c). Cowhide shako covers were a Saxon idiosyncrasy. They weren't widespread but rather one of several sorts of covers used. Just go for a few in each battalion. I recommend you purchase the Calpe painting notes because they answer just this sort of question.

d). The history of Saxon flags for this period is very complex and there isn't a good accurate readily-available English language account of it. Peter F. and I have been piecing together research for this and hope to make it available in due course.

@idontbelieveit mentions the GMB flags – I have review samples of these from Grahame and they are beautiful pieces of work. I'll be writing up a detailed review on my blog but you ought to know that they are the 1811-issue flags, many of which were lost during the 1812 campaign plus the flags are "handed" the wrong way round. I think Grahame plans to do more flags in due course.

Also, Stephen mentions all those lovely artillery pieces. The Saxon artillery really is distinctive and Calpe will be doing a lot of them. I've got samples of the 6-pounder cannon and the howitzer. When I get a moment I'll take some photos and add them to my blog.

Hope that helps!
M.

Jim,

I can't testify to the accuracy of the information, but here is the link from the warflag site about 1811-1815 Saxon infantry flags: link I use them for my 1813 MiniFig Saxon battalions.

Jim

Thank you Colonel Campbell. Your link answered my flag question and also anticipated the next question, which would have been "how many flags were carried by each battalion?" It looks like I could place one liebfahne in the first battalion and one ordinarefahne in the second battalion of the regiment.

There is an excellent booklet, full of illustrations about Saxon colours and standards

Kelterborn, Dr, Eckehart : Sachsische Fahnen und Standarten 1810 bis 1813, Magstadt 1993

Maybe you can get it second hand – it discusses also the sources and mentions a big error of the Brauer plates which confused reverse and obverse of colours and standards with the eexception of Prinz Johann Chevaulegers and further details shown wrongly in the works by Charrié and Over.

The Saxon Heavies I think would usually be found with the Cavalry Reserve.

cheers
Edward

M.

Not sure what you mean by saying that the GMB flags are " 'handed' the wrong way round". WARFLAG, accessed by Jim's helpful link, shows a common mistake, which I think may go back to an Osprey (but am not sure), which actually has all the Saxon Infantry flags the wrong way round. The German Army Museum in Dresden has a good collection of originals, both from this period and immediately afterwards. Sadly they are not on display, but I have had the privilege of seeing some first hand. There is also a booklet published by the Saxon Military History Circle which contains colour photos of all those still in existence, (including two from the later issue with Royal crown) and the orientation of the two sides is quite clear. Having seen a debate on the Befreieungskrieg (spelling?) site, I thought that GMB had agreed to produce the flags the correct way around. As I do not game in 25/28mm I have sadly not seen their work, so which side is which? Do they follow the WARFLAG mistake, or correct it?

Mollinary

@mollinary: by "handed" the wrong way round I mean the same error as you describe. The current batch of GMB flags follows the Warflag mistake, which as you correctly point out, derives from readily available secondary sources like the Osprey book by Over.

Grahame was going to make the correction but he decided against it because he didn't want to have to keep explaining to customers who believed the erronoeus sources that his flags were indeed the right way round.

Anyway, I live in hope that Grahame will change his mind.

The sources you mention are excellent – especially the Dresden museum – and are ones that I'm aware of. I'd also like to support von Winterfeld's mention of the Kelterborn book. Sadly it's extremely rare and I haven't been able to locate a copy.

m,

Sorry to hear that GMB decided to perpetuate the mistake rather than include a simple note on the truth. I also have Fiebig's Unsterbliche Treue on German Flags which covers this, as well as a CD and photocopy version of J.E. Hottenroth's seminal work on Saxon flags, published in Dresden in 1910. The latter I managed to get hold of via the excellent German site of:
historischer-bilderdienst.de which has all sorts of fascinating material on flags uniforms and other military topics.

Cheers,

Mollinary

It is terrible to see that a producer decides to continue to do the colours and standards wrongly due to the fact to avoid harassment from his customers.

Hi all

It wasn't as simple as that ^ !

I had five printed sources – all considered pretty reliable – ( including one on Martin Kelly's superb 'http://befreiungskriege.wordpress.com/' site – link ). All showed the flags with the obverse and reverse the same way.
There was also a deal of confusion over who had which flag and when – also which border went with which flag.
There have been emails flying back and forth around the world – as a result, we think we might have a better idea of what the post Russia re-issue may have been – which in part may explain why a yellow faced regiment are recorded as having a crimson flag.

The information about the reversed sides came to me via a comment on a blog, several months ago – after I had already completed the artwork ..and print layout.
This has only very recently been backed up by a very reliable source ( Peter Bunde). I am correcting them – but anyone who has seen my recent work will understand that this isn't an evenings work.

Re accuracy – I have a policy that I will change or correct any of my flags when new supported information is uncovered.

Indeed, I have almost completed a complete rework of all two and a half thousand GMB flag codes – because I felt my newer work was vastly superior to the early output.These have been added into stock as they were completed, over the last three years – so no big announcement it's already happened.

If you do have any sources – please do let me know.

Oh, and GMB is a 'he' not a 'they' which might in some part explain my low profile.

Regards

Grahame
GMB Designs

Hi Grahame – thanks for the clarification. And the compliment about my blog.

Anybody's who's seen Grahame's artwork and the sheer amount of detail on the original Saxom flags will appreciate that it takes a considerable amount of time and care to create (and subsequently correct) these flags. Especially if you're running the business as a sole trader.

Thanks Martin

Did I mention being a relatively new dad ?

To a six month old girl who has just started on solid food..

..

…

soooooooo tired….

G

Hi Grahame and Martin,

I am the blogger who provided the information in the first place! Always available to back up my comments with evidence, as I would never wish to set anyone off on a wild goose chase producing new products on the basis of rumour. If you are interested, Grahame, I am very happy to lend you my copy of the Sxaon Historical circles book which has photographs of the two surviving flags, together with text, in German, from both Fiebig and Hottenroth, which describes the flags and some of the confusion about issues and re-issues. By the way, if you use the link in my previous e-mail, and go to Flaggen und Fahnen, and click on Hottenroth, at the bottom of the page is the key illustration from the book, which is contained on the CD. If you enlarge it, it gives a pretty good picture to support the contention on obverse and reverse of Saxon flags.

Regards

Andrew/Mollinary

In case it might of use, I can do some photos of the plates in the above mentioned hard to get booklet and send it to you.

@Grahame: congratulations on becoming a parent. I know exactly what you mean about tiredness, I have two daughters of my own.

@Andrew, von Winterfeldt: I'd also be interested in the information you've offered to Grahame. I'm sure that Peter F. of Calpe Miniatures would be interested to see it too. I'm not sure I'd want the responsibility of borrowing such rare texts from you but photographs or scans of the relevant plates and text would be fantastic if you are able to provide them. Andrew: I have your e-mail address by virtue of your comments on my blog, so I'll write to you that way. von Winterfeldt: I'm afraid I don't know how to contact you but feel free to post a comment on my blog at befreiungskriege.wordpress.com

Echo that – 'I'm not sure I'd want the responsibility of borrowing such rare texts from you but photographs or scans of the relevant plates and text would be fantastic'
I'd be very pleased indeed to see a photo or two of surviving flag.

The link you posted to the illustrations has raised even more questions for me.

My contact – gmbdesigns@blueyonder.co.uk

OK – I am hard pressed for time at the moment but will do the photos in due course and send them to GBM Designs.

Happy to help.

I'll put together what I can and send it off. Grahame and Martin, I'll contact you both using your e-mail address. This thread stimulated to go back to the photocopy of Hottenroth, and I found a letter there which describes the King's benevolent gesture of allowing certain named regiments, which had lost their colours in the Russian campaign through no fault of their own, to be issued with the colours of disbanded regiments then held in the Arsenal. I'll include it in the pack. I'll leave von Winterfeld to do the Kelterborn, and I'll do the others. All the best to all,

Andrew

Thanks Andrew. Got your e-mail. The letter you mention will please Peter F. because it supports the theory he's been developing.

The photos of the plates and some part of the text are in the cyber space to GMB Designs.

By the way – the plates of the Kelterbron book, executed by Peter Schlegel are in Napoleon's Apogee as well.

The photos of surviving flags from the Saxon Military History Circle book, and the relevant text from Hottenroth, are in the post to Martin.

Andrew