"Bars" Topic

Hi,
I've just found my Grandads medal ribbons and have been looking them up--He has The War Medal,39-45 Star, Italy Star, Defence Medal and the Atlantic Star (with bar) and Africa Star(with Bar)--Now I expected this as he was in the Merchant Navy and sailed everywhere…But does anyone know why he would have got a bar to his Atlantic/Africa Stars? What were the criteria?

Can't tell you exactly the criteria for the individual awards, but he was probably serving on a ship on an Atlantic run for the first qualifying period – say 6 months, then he (and possibly the ship) were transferred to the Med. (hence the Africa Star), back to the Atlantic for a while (for D-Day? – bar to the Atlantic Star) then back to the Med. for the end of the war, giving the Italy star & the bar to the Africa star.

A very quick Google brought up the following info.

The Atlantic Star
To commermorate The Battle of the Atlantic. Minimum of 180 days at sea in theAtlantic Ocean, between the 3rd. of September 1939 and the 2nd. of September 1945 ( 60 days for RAF aircrews ). Qualifying service started only after earning the 1939/1945 Star. Bars for Air Crew Europe and France and Germany, were awarded if the recipient qualified for those stars, but only one may be worn.
The Ribbon colours represent the waters of the Atlantic Ocean in all of its moods.

Africa Star
No prior award of the 39-45 Star is necessary, and this Star is awarded for only one days service or more in North Africa between the 10th. of June 1940 to the 12th. of May 1943. Three bars were instituted, but only the first one awarded may be worn, these were Eighth Army, First Army, and North Africa 1942-43. Service with the Eighth Army from the 23rd. of October 1942 ( El Alamein ) and the 12th. 12th. of May 1943, with the First Army from thev 8th. of November 1942 and the 12th. of May 1943, qualified for the first and second bars. Service between the 23rd. of October 1942 and the 12th. of May 1943 for those outside both the 8th. and 1st. Armies ie the 18th. Army Group HQ's, Naval and Merchant Navy personnel earned the third bar.

The ribbon, yellow for the vast desert, and the colours dark blue for the Navy, red for the Army, and pale blue for the Airforce.

There where 8 Stars available, max a individual can wear is 5, regardless of how many they might have qualified for.
They are:-
1939-45 Star
Atlantic Star
Air crew Europe Star
Africa Star
Pacific Star
Burma Star
Italy Star
France and Germany Star

Just for completness
The Defence Medal.
Various criteria apply for the award of this medal, but in the main it was for service in non operational areas subject to an attack, or closely threatened for a minimum of three years.
Ribbon colours are symbolic of enemy attack, the flame on the green of the British Isles, whilst the black stripes stand for the blackout of the wartime years.

The War Medal 1939-1945.
A minimum of 28 days service required, awarded to both operational and non operational members in the Armed Services, including the Merchant Navy when serving at sea.
Ribbon represents the Union Jack, if a Mention in Dispatches was awarded, it is worn on this medal ribbon.

Sorry I can't shed any light on your query, however, if your grandfather was in the Merchant Navy long enough to earn all of those I take my hat of to him. All too often the Merchant Navy are forgoten these days, they may not have fought in the strictest sense of the word, but they did serve, and from day one of the war right to the right to the bitter end. Good luck with your search.

Fatman

For an explanation, try here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_bar

Just to clarify terminology:

'Bars' are only issued for a second/third/fourth issue of the same medal. E.g. 'DSO & Bar' means that he has won the DSO twice.

'Clasps' are issued to indicate a specific aspect of the medal. Clasps could be awarded for a specific theatre of war, a specific battle, a specific unit, a particular timeframe, long service, etc. E.g. North Africa Star with 8th Army Clasp, General Service Medal with Northern Ireland Clasp, Cadet Forces Medal with Long Service Clasp, etc.

I've not heard of Bars awarded for Campaign Stars. You just got one Star for each campaign, regardless of how many times you went to that theatre. The 1st & 8th Army Clasps were a brass '1' or '8' pinned on to the ribbon. Other clasps looked like a Bar, but usually had something written on them to indicate what they were awarded for.

The MoD has some relevant pictures – and it does sound like additional clasps rather than a 'bar' in the sense of double award. There are some stars that were mutually exclusive and offered up as clasps to one or other.

Here is a link to the MoD image of Africa Star with all three clasps
link

and the same for the Atlantic Star
link

Do the clasps shown there match the bars on the medals?

Well I have found out (from a different forum) that he got his Atlantic "bar" for dragging over a big bit of Mulberry during the D Day invasion and this counted as his NW & Germany campaing star--Still a bit confused over the bar on his Africa Star?

myrm11-yes it is only the ribbons I have so it is a small silver flower..

That's correct for a 'standard' clasp – it's a small metal rosette on the ribbon. For the 1st & 8th Armies however, it was usually a numeral '1' or '8'.

Hi Chaps mystery solved--he was involved in the Torch Landings so that counted as his Bar to his nomal Med duties….

Merchant Navy Second Mates were sometimes impressed by the 8th Army as navigators for desert expeditions. Being skilled and experienced navigators (their prime function) they would be able to plot a desert expedition's position using a sextant.
They would be taken from ships in Suez or Alexandria, which were not sailing; waiting for cargo, for example.
I've not been able to find out their status with the Army, or their uniform or rank badges. OPerhaps they continued to wear their Merch uniform!

LOL--My Grandad in the desert!!! He never even learnt to drive----And as a short fat bald bloke (even in his 20's) I think a slow death by heat exhaustion would happen!!!!

Hi my grandad was a marine in the merchant navy and seems very similar to yours, particularly with the medals he was issued.

He had a bar on his atlantic star because although he was entitled to the france and germany star he already had the 5 stars and dipped out on the pacific star as well because he had already qualified for the burma star

Sorry this is slightly off topic

Before one of my grandads convoys sailed into the atlantic early in the war. The ships captains drew lots for position in the convoy. My grandads captain drew number48 for his ship, one of the other captains drew number 13 and was well brassed off and asked my grandads captain to swap, not being superstitious he did.

When the convoy went, out the uboats sank the ship in number48s position amongst many others my grandads survived. Incredibly brave men.

Ross- I remember we once had to wait for a table at a cafe to have its number changed from 13 to 12a because my Grandad wouldn't sit at number 13…..

Could you tell me what a "marine in the merchant navy" was? I've never heard of one, or them.

I guess he either means a 'mariner' (typo) or a Royal Marine assigned as gun crew to an armed Merch?

Probably a Royal Marine assigned as a gunner on a DEM…

As far as I know, gunners on DEMS were either RN or RNR gunners, or the Maritime Regiment, Royal Artillery. Neither would be Royal Marines, although I know that they did man guns on RN ships.

Hi chouan--my next door neighbour (now sadly passed away) was a Royal Navy gunner on DEMs and part of his crew on his first Atlantic Convoy was a poor "bootie" who went all the way to Halifax and back in his bunk with really bad seasickness….So despite his lack of sea legs at least one Royal Marine served on a DEM!!!

Thanks, I was unaware of their role on DEMS.

Sorry, I've been away, yes,as people have said a royal marine, I know he operated the 2pounder pom pom guns amongst other guns. Apparantly their ship sailed into Singapore the day it fell to the Japs, they dumped their cargo and loaded personnel and sailed straight off again, a narrow escape.

His best mate Harry, a marine too, but was always on different ships, luckily, as he had 5 ships sunk under him, 3 to torpedoes.