"Death of the Red Baron" Topic

Has anyone seen the documentary on our old chum the Red Baron on ‘Yesterday' (Channel 12, UK Freeview)?

I was particularly interested in the final section which seems to prove once and for all that he was killed by an Australian Sergeant, operating an Vickers from the ground and that the establishment leant on Captain Brown to claim the ‘kill' for moral/publicity reasons.

I knew that there had long been a series of debates on the subject but I had know idea that the British examined the body. The evidence was pretty conclusive that the fatal single bullet wound was made at completely the wrong angle to have come from the guns of Brown's Camel!

Good program all round with some nice flight sequences.

Hi

Old news, though usually presented as inf rifle fire. The problem with all of these "solutions" is the concept of "static position". The round entered from below and was a .303, but it could have been a brief moment when the baron had put the nose down and leaning forward.

So, I while I accept the "Brown didn't" argument, and do accept it was the Aussie unit, without modern ballistic testing, I won't state categorically.

Rocky

Sounds like the same one that aired on PBN in the US. It was a very interesting and well done program.

Strange that 90 years after a death in the Great War, we are still holding coroner's inquests.
Did anyone else's death in the Great War have such controversy around it?
The whole thing boils down to who gets the credit for killing someone, doesn't it?

Was a grassy knoll involved?

Possibly, but as mentioned, if the plane was maneuvering hard, the shot could have come from anywhere, e.g. ground, or air.

No way to really know, unless you were there, and then could analyze it later.

Given the event was quite awhile ago, we will most likely never know for sure.

Was a grassy knoll involved?

It does constitute a lone gunman theory.

I'd say it was the mirror image of the grassy knoll. Several claimants to the title of assassin, and no proof as to which one it was. An apparently straightforward bullet wound that can still be explained otherwise if…

The death of Franz Ferdinand has been equally studied, but there was little doubt about who pulled the trigger.

Well, according to the autopsy done by a British doctor had the bullet hitting the RB in the side and from below and passing upwards through his body, a position that Brown was never in so as to be able to deliver the fatal shot, it's pretty well established that Brown didn't do it.

There were many witnesses to the final battle and the post fight investigation was quite thorough. The final moments of the fight to the crash have been very well established and have not been disputed.

jdg

Interesting comments.

"old news"

Well yes and no.

There are loads of web sites and historic bits and bobs in print that either still credit Brown directly, or say Brown and/or possibly, Australian ground fire. Besides like all TV programs this was made for the masses not TMP members.

"without modern ballistic testing, I won't state categorically."

Well, that would have been fun even at the time and of course impossible now.

As the program pointed out Brown, one or more infantrymen, a Lewis Gun team and the MG Company Vickers, all had a pop and of course all used the same .303 ammo.

The entry wound was below the right arm pit and the exit just below the left nipple; which would indicate a shot from the right hand side and below.

Eyewitness reports indicated that Brown was never in a position to take such a shot and of the rest, the Sergeant with the Vickers was. Due to the ridge line Von R was flying over in pursuit of the ‘other Camel'.

In addition, the description of the wound indicated to modern forensic experts, insufficient trauma to be made at close range.

Finally, the wound would have proved fatal some 20 – 30 seconds after impact, which correlates with Von R just having time to put the Dr1 down (as he was so low) and no more.

The first infantry man on the scene testified that Von R actually expired as he reached the cockpit.

‘Grassy Knoll' comments or no, still interesting piecing together of info from some previously unused archives.

I find it interesting that they would actually do an autopsy.
Just another dead Hun. Nothing special about him. Shovel some dirt on top of him, and be done with it. Would Feldwebel Bauer get an autopsy?

John, in the same way a knocked out King Tiger might be more closely examined than a knocked out Panzer IV, or a shot down ME-262 versus a Bf-109, the fascination has to do with the perceived power.

In some stories, a Canadian is credited for taking out Michael Wittman (the WWII German Tiger tank ace), while others try to disprove this.

Combined with the efforts to take away the vanquishing of the original German ace from Canadian, Brown, I sense a conspriacy against my country by all those jealous types out there!!!

Nyahh to you all! We got all the German bad guys!
--
Tim

Well, then, if that's the case, by all means!
Did the Canadians and Australians settle this fairly?

During the war, it was good propaganda to claim another pilot got him. After the war, well -- even the Official Canadian History of the Great War admits that it was very likely ground fire.

Did the Canadians and Australians settle this fairly?

The only way to settle the red baron case is a drink off…
--
Tim

So "Drink Canada Dry" Tim? ;-)

I don't think a lot of folks appreciate the grim desperation of the British Government during WWI.

Propaganda / Censorship and Secrecy dominated 'official' activity almost each and every day during the great war. Think about it. If the British army were taking those kinds of losses today and they weren't 'winning' what would happen?

Getting Richthofen was a coup beyond belief. Giving Brown credit was almost mandatory. Now the government could trumpet 'our airmen are the equal of Germany's very best'!

Somehow reporting that Richthofen was killed by ground fire just doesn't have the same effect.

Propaganda value dictated the 'official' reporting the event -- not the facts.

mjc

Ditto Bird

---Combined with the efforts to take away the vanquishing of the original German ace from Canadian, Brown, I sense a conspriacy against my country by all those jealous types out there!!!---

To take away??? You can't take away something you never had anyway!

Tim,
You see the show where they demonstrated that only Canadian Shermans had a clear shot at Wittman at effective range? Pretty cool. Though there's enough room left for some to argue.

Always wondered about the Red Baron saga.Interesting stuff that. "Battlefield Detectives" and those other shows.

bloody Australians, get in on everything….oi oi oi

Sgt Popham. His daughter lived next door to me for many years, and the family still have some souveneirs from the 'plane.

I have it on good authority that Snoopy got the Red Baron.

link

How equal is the death of Red Baron and F. Baracca. How different is to accept.

After the war Brown never said anything to remove his claim. In fact he went virtually silent on the subject. But earlier statements were always that he had shot at long range, from above and the left; he never changed that detail in recounting the fight. Instead of turning INTO Brown, the RB turned right and away; which could have momentarily (just before Brown zoomed up and away, bleeding off his excessive diving speed) put the Triplane into a right side-facing position: as maneuverable (unstable) as a Triplane is, all it would take is an instant of right wingtips high at the moment the bullet struck. This isn't as likely I know as the long-range burst from Popkin from the right and below; but it can't be entirely ruled out either….

Brown is our man. Good on ya, Brown!

"as maneuverable (unstable) as a Triplane is, all it would take is an instant of right wingtips high at the moment the bullet struck"

True but wouldn't the natural instablity of the Triplane be to the right(engine rotation)and lead the right wing tip to drop, rather than rise?

At the very least, I'd guess Brown whether he knew it or not,set MvR up;manuevering him into position so if he couldn't get him,the ground fire would. Classic crossfire teamwork,whether intended or not. But,that's JMO.

The DR1 had a very quick roll rate especially to the left. The RB turning right, away from Brown, is clearly seen in the eyewitness account: this was technically the incorrect thing to do. Rising ground on his left and the position of the sun have been offered as reasons why the RB turned away from instead of into Brown. If the Triplane was cranked to the right with jabs of the rudder and not committed to a full right turn as a single curve, then the wings would not drop much if at all as the righthand turn was done: any intermediate push of the stick to the left would tend to INSTANTLY raise the right wingtips and the nose. As I said, all it would take is just one instant of that attitude (movement within a single second) at the exact moment that the bullet that killed him arrived….