Grizwald | 03 Sep 2009 10:43 a.m. PST |
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Space Monkey | 03 Sep 2009 10:54 a.m. PST |
Needs guidelines or catagories
Don't have some 30yr old Napoleonic cluster going up against Epic 40K or some craptacular RPG nonsense like Cyborg Commando or Powerkill (sheesh!). |
GypsyComet | 03 Sep 2009 10:56 a.m. PST |
This will all end in tears. I just know it. |
nazrat | 03 Sep 2009 11:03 a.m. PST |
Taking a page from YOUR book, Mike
Depends on how you define "worst". And "ever". And "rules". |
richarDISNEY | 03 Sep 2009 11:14 a.m. PST |
Well, Mike, seeing it was my thread
I think I would change the poll to "Rules we dislike to play" or "Rules we dislike to play, but still do
" |
quidveritas | 03 Sep 2009 11:24 a.m. PST |
There are rules I won't play; rules my group won't play; and rules that have not been played because they were too much work to learn and get a game up. These are all bad rules from my POV. But the 'worst rules' implies that you have some masochistic tendencies where you are 'forced' to play certain rules. mjc |
Ditto Tango 2 1 | 03 Sep 2009 11:35 a.m. PST |
|
CmdrKiley | 03 Sep 2009 11:35 a.m. PST |
I predict relentless carnage
.followed by crying. |
Jovian1 | 03 Sep 2009 12:04 p.m. PST |
Worst rules – Mutant Chronicles RPG – difficult to read, difficult to create a character, and unplayable once you find out that anything with armor is invicible under the rules as written – silliness. Runner up and tied for Worst rules – Living Steel – where it takes an hour or two to make a character, three hours to figure out where you hit an enemy with your shot as you literally trace the shot THROUGH your opponent – and then after chart hopping for three hours – you discover that your shot instantly killed the enemy. Yep, both were the "worst rules systems" I've ever encountered and attempted to play. There are lots of rules sets out there where I have not played them because I don't want to go through law school again, and others because no one else will play them in the group, and others where I don't like the genre so I don't bother. A bit of contemplation on types of worst rules sets leads me to believe if you want a proper poll you would have to divide it somehow – and I'm not going to suggest that as any division would still be subjective. |
GoodBye | 03 Sep 2009 12:26 p.m. PST |
I never really cared for the super fiddly detailed realistic type of rules. If it takes more then a few seconds to determine casualties then it's the wrong game for me. If the rules can't be summarized on two sides of a single sheet of paper, then I'm probably at the wrong gaming table. Donald~ who trys to always have time for a nice game of toy soldiers- |
Major Mike | 03 Sep 2009 12:35 p.m. PST |
I vote for a WWII batch I wrote up and inflicted upon a few willing fellows at a convention. First and last real playtest of them. |
Martin Rapier | 03 Sep 2009 12:38 p.m. PST |
I'm really not sure that anything useful is going to come out of this thread, what are the criteria for 'worst'? Is it the same as 'I hate'? I do think context is important, a lousy scenario with great rules is going to be awful to play, wheras a great scenario with bad rules or even no rules at all is really good fun. Rules don't exist in a vacuum, they are used to play games. I can think of a few rules which don't appear to have been proofread, or playtested, which might be regarded as a bad thing. But if they produce good games, who cares. |
The Tin Dictator | 03 Sep 2009 1:15 p.m. PST |
I'd say the rules to cricket are right up there toward the top of the list. |
The Tin Dictator | 03 Sep 2009 1:15 p.m. PST |
Or the rule about NO DIVING at the public pool. |
vojvoda | 03 Sep 2009 1:23 p.m. PST |
D&D ruined many a good possible historical gamer converts. VR James Mattes |
vojvoda | 03 Sep 2009 1:24 p.m. PST |
As well as the hobby for many a year. VR James Mattes |
20thmaine | 03 Sep 2009 1:35 p.m. PST |
The single worst rule is the "open doors" rulee in the GW LOTR game which pitches figure's strength against door strength Can't remember the exact odds, but there's something like a 1 in 10 chance of a balrog not being able to open an unlocked normal door. Just use a house rule that trolls, balrogs, mumakil, ents don't need to roll against an unlocked normal door |
GoodBye | 03 Sep 2009 1:50 p.m. PST |
D&D ruined many a good possible historical gamer converts. As well as the hobby for many a year. Why would you say this? What's your proof? My experience has been the exact opposite. I only played RPG's (specifically D&D) while at sea on ships because it was easy--it's much more difficult to carry 20lbs of miniatures to sea than a few small booklets. It has also been my experience that many of the kids that start with D&D go to GW and some of those move onto historicals and most of those would have never picked up the first miniature if it weren't for D&D. I personally think close minded gamers that want to dictate their own biases are ruining the hobby! Please understand it's just my opinion! Donald~ |
nazrat | 03 Sep 2009 2:01 p.m. PST |
I agree with Donald-- virtually everybody I know here in Charlotte started with D & D. Many still play, and I'm getting talked into it by my buds right now. |
McKinstry | 03 Sep 2009 2:05 p.m. PST |
I've never played a game of D&D (and probably never will) but significant numbers of the guys I play historical games with started with D&D and for that, I am quite appreciative of Mr. Gyax. |
Grizwald | 03 Sep 2009 2:08 p.m. PST |
"Depends on how you define "worst". And "ever". And "rules"." Yup. But that didn't stop people on RicharDMB's thread from suggesting several candidates! |
richarDISNEY | 03 Sep 2009 2:17 p.m. PST |
Well, Mike, I did ask for reasons WHY the game was bad
|
Plynkes | 03 Sep 2009 2:39 p.m. PST |
Outrageous! Absolutely outrageous. I won't stand for it. A group attack upon an entire way of life, that's what it is. If I were a snivelling, rotten, low-down, dirty scrub I should almost consider pressing the complaint button. As it is I shall be the bigger man and let it pass with a hard, withering stare. You know of what I speak. Never heard the like
|
Grizwald | 03 Sep 2009 2:40 p.m. PST |
"Well, Mike, I did ask for reasons WHY the game was bad
" Absolutely! Perhaps we should take 20thmaine's point and conduct a poll on the worst ever rule? |
chuck05 | 03 Sep 2009 3:14 p.m. PST |
Pretty much any ruleset from Leading Edge was horrible. Phoenix Command, living Steel, Dragonstar Rising, Aliens RPG were all pretty terrible. Chuck |
RJ Andron | 03 Sep 2009 3:27 p.m. PST |
I've got to disagree with those who claim that Leading Edge games were horrible. Actually Phoenix Command was a very solid and fun ruleset and really brought a lot of detail to the table. I have never had a Phoenix Command skirmish last longer than an hour for a full-on squad-on-squad battle--even with new players. I even used elements of Phoenix Command in a Stargate SG-1 Game to replace the combat mechanics that I thought were needlessly complex. |
Plynkes | 03 Sep 2009 3:29 p.m. PST |
I could never get my head around Phoenix Command, but we had a GM who could, and we had some fun playing it as long as he took care of all the numbers. |
chronoglide | 03 Sep 2009 3:41 p.m. PST |
burn the heretic
.chuck, hang your head in shame
.and cross reference it with table 6.7.3.4.5.2
and then add the SALM
..;-) |
chronoglide | 03 Sep 2009 3:42 p.m. PST |
Plynkes
.and we played the Aliens RPG
.round of applause for the automatic fire rule
. |
chronoglide | 03 Sep 2009 3:49 p.m. PST |
As much as I love Leading Edge games, P.C. was almost unplayable
.the simplified version they used in other games was more playable
.the game Plynkes is referring to was using the Wild West supplement, where the only weapons available were a handful of revolvers and Plynkes' lever-action rifle. As soon as you drop automatic weapons into the mix, look out
..another round of applause for the Aliens RPG automatic fire rule, which simplified things no end
|
Jovian1 | 03 Sep 2009 3:51 p.m. PST |
Like any system – it CAN be alright if SOMEONE does all of the work to make it work fast and efficiently. Living Steel could be played much quicker, like Phoenix Command or Aliens, but if you had NEVER played them before, or came to a convention to play them with an inexperienced GM they are a total disaster – horrible rules to try to "muddle through" with people waiting on you to play chart master. |
chuck05 | 03 Sep 2009 4:57 p.m. PST |
We played Dragonstar Rising quite abit in High School. I remember the tediousness of spending all my aim actions for multiple turns just to get a decent chance of hitting only to miss or hit somthing like "thigh flesh" and having to repeat the whole process over again. Livivng Steel with its seperate book of just charts for nearly everything was a bit over the top. Just before they went under Leading Edge was working on a streamined version of Living Steel/Dragonstar Rising. One of the designers gave me and my friends a preview copy at Gen Con. That was a pretty good system that fixed alot of the problems. I still have it aound somewhere. |
Space Monkey | 03 Sep 2009 5:45 p.m. PST |
I thought the Living Steel setting was pretty intriguing for the time. I found that game, and Phoenix Command, during my 'realism' phase
which inevitably lead to my 'rules-lite' phase. |
Bayonet | 03 Sep 2009 8:23 p.m. PST |
Some of the rules in wargames illustrated were pretty bad, almost incomplete. On a similar note, I've always felt that FOW was a good game stuck in the wrong genre, I think it might fit better in the age of musket. With the short weapons ranges and the tendacy to rank up troops and all |
vojvoda | 03 Sep 2009 8:46 p.m. PST |
Sorry guys old joke going back to the first days of D&D. I was with a very active group of gamers in Illinois at the time and several of our group went on to form Judges Guild. We never missed a oppertunity to poke them with a sharp stick now and then. Old school thats all. BUT FWIW there are no Orks or Dorks at my game table! Zombies maybe. VR James Mattes |
Scorpio | 03 Sep 2009 9:53 p.m. PST |
Seriously, a poll like this can only end in flames and/or tears. |
Rudysnelson | 03 Sep 2009 11:21 p.m. PST |
Comments on D&D. No intention to evaluate the system. But for the historical gamer there were consequences due to its success. Prior to D&D success as us old gamers know, TSR was the main publisher for historical rules. After D&D sales blasted off, design and publication directions focused on the main money maker (D&D) and the historical section of the company withered. My first purchased set of miniature rules was Tricolor but soon I had bought all the TSR historical rules (never D&D). As Venusboy points out it would have to be multiple polls for either the 'best of' or the 'worst of'. Catagories era, rules style ( RPG, strategic-tactical levels) and even decade of publishing may have to be considered.
An apples to oranges to onions comparison does no good for the newbie gamer with which such a survey is meant to help. If that is not the purpose then it is an invalid poll for fanboys or sour grapers to use as a sound board. That benefits no one. |
Doug em4miniatures | 04 Sep 2009 4:02 a.m. PST |
I'd say the rules to cricket are right up there toward the top of the list. C'mon Bob – you don't actually know any of them. And anyway, they're laws not rules
. Doug |
The Rhino | 04 Sep 2009 4:06 a.m. PST |
WAR in the EAST by SPI Spent what seemed like forever (hours? weeks? months?) getting the game set up and then the cat jumped on the table. It was the Attica prison riot all over again. |
runs with scissors | 04 Sep 2009 5:22 a.m. PST |
Warhammer 40k. No reason. |
Angel Barracks | 04 Sep 2009 7:02 a.m. PST |
I liked leading edges' ALIENS. But then I am a big fan of the filum. |
GoodBye | 04 Sep 2009 7:55 a.m. PST |
Old school thats all. I started gaming in '68 with Comic Book flats of the AmRev and Donald Featherstone's War Games. This was right after I quit throwing rocks at plastic 54mm's in a sand box. I've been gaming since. I believe my pedigree makes me "Old School" also. I think D&D has helped not hindered and my first love is historicals. Cheers, Donald~ |
John the OFM | 04 Sep 2009 8:55 a.m. PST |
I have no problems with Empire V, as long as we have someone willing to tell me "No, you can't do that", and/or "Roll high! Or, is that low?" You don't actually have to READ the rules yourself, as long as someone in the club is willing to take one for the team and do it for us. |
Hastati | 04 Sep 2009 12:33 p.m. PST |
Hmmm, I'm another one who actually liked Phoenix Command. Of course, I was also playing a lot of ASL and Empire at the time as well so that may speak to my state of mind during that period. |
Jlundberg | 04 Sep 2009 12:39 p.m. PST |
A set of WWII rules had you figure out what facet of armor was struck by your shell (not front side etc, but like turret next to the gun on the right side), then your kinetic energy, then roll for penetration, then potential damage) unplayable. I dis like the WH many rolls to get a result style, I really dislike the balance in 40k – you can take out most armor with small arms or even a big ax, missile technology has regressed. I dislike fiddly rules systems as they are more prone to rules lawyering and movement "errors" |
Keltheos | 04 Sep 2009 1:50 p.m. PST |
Chivalry and Sorcery, 1e. |
Dave Crowell | 04 Sep 2009 2:38 p.m. PST |
De Shock of Flames of Fields of Hammer Impact Glory Bellis Harpoon Johnny Shako War Mayhem Machine Chronicals Dungeon Hack with Guns Impact Alley Wars has got to be the absolute worst rules system I have never played. |
Uesugi Kenshin | 04 Sep 2009 3:12 p.m. PST |
Hard to say, because if they sound like they suck when I read them I don't play them. So from a reading standpoint, the #1 rules I ever read that did not sound interesting or encourage me to play, and in fact kinda bumbed me out
.DBA (and DBM and DBR)! So there. |
Benedict Arnold | 04 Sep 2009 11:06 p.m. PST |
"Medieval Warfare" by Terry Gore. |
Uesugi Kenshin | 04 Sep 2009 11:34 p.m. PST |
"Medieval Warfare" by Terry Gore. Blasphemer! |