"Good Dice - Bad Dice" Topic

My wife and I have just played one of those really annoying games when one side (Jan) always rolls really good dice, and the other (me) very low. I have just been reading about this here on TMP, with extreme examples of what some players do when they "lose it". Well nothing very extreme happened, but it did spoil a very good wargame.

We were fighting the latest in a series of campaign wargames. My guard horse grenadiers had already been downgraded to C class, having suffered very heavy casualties in an earlier game. On the first move of this game they received one casualty to artillery fire, tested morale and rolled a 1 on a D6. This resulted in a rout. Next move Napoleon joined them to attempt to rally. They rolled another 1 on a D6 which meant they continued to rout, but this time Napoleon joined them!

Worst was to come. In our rules it required a total of at least 9 with 2D6 to achieve a hit with counter battery fire. The Russian battery achieved two such hits in two rounds. The French battery failed its morale with a 3 on 1D6 and routed. The two supporting infantry brigades were shaken when the first rolled a 2 and the second a 1.

Still worse was to come. On the opposite flank the second French battery (and the last) was exchanging fire with another Russian battery. The Russians changed their target to an adjoining French infantry brigade and got two hits, the infantry routed. The artillery, who had no casualties, also had to test morale. You will not be surprised to hear that they also rolled 1 on 1D6 and promptly joined the infantry in rout!

All of this happened in just five rounds, and the Russians had received two infantry casualties in return.

So what to do when this happens? As these are all campaign games, the consequences are not just a spoiled wargame, it can also have a very bad effect on the whole campaign.

Fortunately Jan and I feel the same about these "freak results". Neither of us like to win a game only due to exceptionally good dice. Changing the rules is not really an option, because by the nature of the game a 6 is exceptionally good firing/melee/morale and a 1 exceptionally bad. This all adds to the fun of the game, and makes the outcome less predictable. It also makes for a fast game, which is what we like. But when it happens too often……..

Well we stopped the game, as there would be no point in the French carrying on. And clearly the Russians have won the game.

But should we accept this as reasonable and take the consequences into the campaign? What would you have done?

Good question – to be honest, we have done it both ways in the past, but on reflection I would take the consequences into the campaign – bad things do happen on occasion in real life – in our latest campaign, good die rolls on the part of the Union and poor die rolls/overconfidence on the result of the Rebs resulted in an entire Corps being routed, and as the Union had managed to get a cavalry division into the Reb rear, essentially destroyed – as a result of which, the Rebs had to totally re-think their strategy in the Western theatre, given that one of their major flanking forces was not so major any more

Gad I feel your pain.

Yes except it as part of the campaign.

Knowing when to quit because you are having a bad day is a skill the N himself could have used : )

Women roll better than men. Children roll better than men. First-time gamers roll better than long-timers.

It's our curse.

I've learned never to play Backgammon or Parcheesi with women.

Every roll that is bad for one side is good for another. Your dice were not "bad". They were traitors.

And runs of abnormal dice rolls can ruin a good game for both side.

Since it was part of a campaign, I would accept the results. You stated that the horse grenadiers were already downgraded in morale due to previous casualties and battle wear. So in a sense, the outcome doesn't seem too unreasonable. Maybe if your troops were fresher the results would have been different.

One thing I'm not a big fan of though is contagious morale systems, i.e. one of your units routs, so the other units have to check their morale too.

In general, counter-battery fire should not be very effective during this period. It was generally discouraged by commanders. So again, the Russians had a lucky day.

Things might go in your favor in the next game, for all you know. BTW, nice to have a spouse that enjoys the hobby as much as you do. That is a very rare thing.

TB2,

Feel fortunate that you do not live in a country that allows you two wives. Then again, we would not be reading your lament. :)

Do not change the rules, as Fortuna will swing your way and you may not have to take the trash out that week. Seriously, even Napoleon had his set backs. Follow his fine examples of 1814 and pull the rabbit out of the hat.

Cheers,
Robert
18thcenturysojourn.blogspot.com

I have a friend who just blames the dice personally. They are flushed (and I mean that literally). He does get through a lot of dice but it makes him feel so much better when the disasters occur.

LOL – I'm wanting for Shane's Reply ………. of his ultra detailed system where they count wagon wheels.

That's a good reason why I've started moving away from rules where simply having hot dice makes you a military genius. Some randomness is important, but it should be just one of several factors in deciding things.

A rough experience but if you are doing a campaign write-up, you can create a colorful version of the rout and come up with some interesting reasons for it- instead of just horrific luck on the dice. Enjoy the lows and the highs. If it potentially ruins the campaign, then write up something that allows the French a second chance, to recover their loss.
Add some drama to it and you'll enjoy the game more.
Of course, I am writing this from the cozy position of not having been trampled into the mud by my victorious foe!

That's a good reason why I've started moving away from rules where simply having hot dice makes you a military genius. Some randomness is important, but it should be just one of several factors in deciding things.

Quite so. Always wonder why folks decry the so called buckets of dice rules, when the truth is throwing a handfull of dice at a time you are very unlikely to get such extreme results across a game. Throwing 1's and 6's is quite easy with a single D6. Even throwing a 9 or better on 2D6 is not hard. 10/36 so getting close to a 1/3rd chance.

Ouch! That's some horrible dice-love in that game.

A friend of mine is going to burn a pair of dice that failed her horribly in a game a couple years ago, she needs to finish painting her Flameguard Cleansers (troops armed with flamethrowers in the Warmachine game) first.

The only real downfall to buckets-o-dice is having enough space to roll them all!

Get better dice! Most dice are actually lopsided because part of the finishing process is to run them in a tumbler to smooth them out and to get off the excess ink.

Check out these two videos from a true Dice Guru:

YouTube link

YouTube link

I'm a Jack Scruby fan so…

"Let the Dice Decide!"

"but this time Napoleon joined them!"
I knew you couldn't trust that Corsican fellow!

I had a solo game the other night where the French managed to have fantastic dice rolls all game and the poor Austrians couldnt hit a barn door! In fact at one point due to poor manouevring by myself (obviously being a solo game) the Austrians were presented with a close range shot from a artillery batteyr loaded with case shot into the flanks of some Old Guard. Expecting butchery, the dice rolls came up so bad that they lost no more than a handful of men (in real terms).

The Austrians ended up losing the majority of their force (about 8 regiments) for the french losing less than a company of men.

No doubt the insinuation is proof of a lack of gallantry on my part, but, were you both using the same set of dice?

The solution is to start with a sound overall strategy, set up your forces as to have a balanced attack or defence.
Use sound tactical manuevering. When critical close combat situations occur, your intial balanced deployment, coupled with tactical maneuvers which allow you to have an advantage in mass ratio, should minimize the effects of "bad dice rolls".

Wayne

This is a common problem when using 1D6 for morale purposes. The range of possible rolls is so short that it will allow for extreme results. The most logical solution is to use 2D6, with the appropriate modifiers, to minimize the extreme results effect, may be even including some intermediate state between a Rout and Good morale (Disorder or something like that).

Though it looks right that a battery will rout/retreat if its supporting brigades are routed, I don't believe the reverse should be also true. It doesn't look right that a fresh Infantry brigade would be routed just because a nearby battery is silenced by counter-battery fire. Many soldiers would notice that something had happened, but neither what or to whom, and if themselves aren't under fire it's doubtful that their morale would be harmed for something so small (relatively speaking, in relation to the size of the Infantry brigade) as a single battery.

Sorry, but as a retired manufacturing/semiconductor industry engineer, I found that I couldn't roll die without automatically & unconsciously computing the odds in my head. Here is a table I gave out to fellow players for 2D6. If you use 1D6, there is a 16.6% chance of getting any single number, such as a "one". With two die, snake eyes ("double ones" for you non crap players) is only a 2.8% chance. If you are using 1D6 and want to lower the odds from 16.6%, try using a "saving throw" die which has half (or whatever number) of the faces painted say green or red.

Comparison of rolling 2 six sided die versus 1 10 sided.

This table describes what happens if you roll 2D6.

a) The second column is the sum of the pips on the die.
b) The first column is the % chance of that sum showing up.
c) The third column is the % chance of another roll matching or beating that sum.
d) The rightmost 2 columns are for a 10 sided die

two six sided die…………………one 10 sided die
=======================================================

%……..sum…..number….beat………….roll….% exceeding
chance…rolled..of hits…percent
---------------------------------------------------
2.8…….2…….1…….100.0………..10……100
5.6…….3…….2…….97.3…………20……90
8.3…….4…….3…….91.7…………30……80
11.1……5…….4…….83.3…………40……70
13.9……6…….5…….72.2…………50……60
16.7……7…….6…….58.3…………60……50
13.9……8…….5…….41.7…………70……40
11.1……9…….4…….27.8…………80……30
8.3…….10……3…….16.7…………90……20
5.6…….11……2……..8.3…………100…..10
2.8…….12……1……..2.8

For 2 six-sided die there are 36 posssible combinations of rolls, but only 12 "bins" (that is, possible sums or results).

Using 1 ten sided die or 2 six sided die really doesn't change how a wargame is played too much, since the procedure is usually to either compare a rolled number with a table or to test to see if the rolled number is greater than a "target" number. I like rolling two die.