"ECW Artillery Carriage colors?" Topic

So, several ECW books, no one commenting on the colors of the carriages. How Osprey can publish a book that has pages and pages of useless details about how the carriage was designed, but nothing about painting, lacquering, varnishing, oiling, etc, that affect the color is beyond me.

I've heard that they were a variety of bright colors, but the Osprey portray them all in natural wood (stained) or sometimes red.

Anyone have additional thoughts? I'm painting all my ECW artillery this week, from huge demi-cannons to sakers, falcons and frame guns.

Also, were the large guns every brass? Or were they always cast in iron?

Thanks!

There are very few details of anything much concerning ECW armies. Colours (flags) are conjectural in many cases, uniforms may or may not have been uniform and no-one really knows what gun carriages may or may not have been painted with. As you have discovered on a previous thread, matching horses were right out.

It's really not a period for anyone who HAS to know the last detail. Looking at it another way, no-one can say with any certainty that you're wrong either

most periods are like this.
:)

But I find it hard to believe that no one has any information on the techniques used to preserve the wood of gun carriages, paint, stain, etc. We know this even about longbows.

iirc therte is good argument they were painted/stained black along with the muskets, however i paint mine all colours from red, redbrown, ochre, blue and green, as do most others :o)

I believe the iron bits were stained black. Also, they wouldn't preserve them with wood paint/stain, since it would just make it more difficult to replace the iron bits as needed. Since these things were huge investments and intended to be used for a long time – decades at least – they would have been preserved and someone must record it somewhere.

I do what "Troop of Shewe" recommends. Painted grey, "red-oak color", red, blue, etc. All Iron bits black with a sight dry brush of a dark silvery and mix the tubes with some black and others bronze (then Black/Brown ink the hole lot).

I too share your frustration with most of the books out there. Almost no info on what you need for painting the guns and crew.

Erik

I doubt the wooden parts of the gun carriage would have been left natural wood. Some sort of paint would have been used and the color would depend upon what color(s) were available locally.

I use red-brown, yellow/ochre and blue(s).

As for crew; I paint then in a mix of civilian colors with no special uniform style. Master Gunners would, of course, be better dressed.

Both brass & iron cannon were used, so take your pick. Red does seem to have been a common colour, judging by reproductions – presumably because red oxide is a commonly used & cheap pigment in paint. Go with what looks best to you. No-ones likely to prove you wrong.

Well, does anybody know what wood was used to make the carriages? It could well be oiled like teak, which would darken the natural colour.

oils were used for longbows, but they were pretty clear it seems. So the question is would they use the same stuff.

I have trouble believing that no one has ever done research on the common ways to preserve wood during this period. If I was going to reproduce an ECW cannon for re-enacting, I'd darn well make certain that the appearance was based upon historical methods!

Does anyone know the site for some ECW re-enactors who have artillery?

Oak was often used.

well, I checked here: link

and both the artillery site links were dead. However, I emailed a fellow listed at the Sealed Knot as the contact, so I guess we'll see what happens.

I'll try again before giving up.

I have trouble believing that no one has ever done research on the common ways to preserve wood during this period.

There were many ways used to preserve wood. Coat it with lime wash, or paint, or tar, It rather depends how the wood is being used. I suggest that gun carriages come low down on the list.

There is no information because there is no…information. The people who were around at the time didn't bother to write down (except in general terms,i.e. 'Howard's gonnes were red'. Which could mean the guns, the gun carriages or the coats of the gunners) descriptions of the armies and their equipment. A bit of a er for future generations but there you go.

Speaking as an undergraduate historian, I wouldn't put to much reliance on a re-enactments society's interpretations, they only have the same information to work with, and have been known to play fast and loose with reality in order to provide a good show….

Feel free to ignore this post as you have my others.

I've done mine in a sort of woodish brown, on the basis that the wood was probably oiled/laquered just to prevent water damage.

Limewashing is an option, but that tends to weather to brown shades anyway so I'm OK there.

I'm not sure about tarring; it can get sticky in hot weather and might have been troublesome when maneouvering the gun; although it's used on boats, it's not used on decks or other "trafficked" areas.

Painting may have been done but it's worth bearing in mind that while the gun was important, the carriage was less so; it could be fairly easily replaced by a competent carpenter/wheelwright (and probably was replaced reasonably often). They would possibly not have painted those components for the same sort of reason that cartwheels wouldn't be painted -- they're functional not decorative.

The minute they were fired, everything in sight would be blackened… perhaps a generic "grubby/muddy" would be the best colour :-)

"I find it hard to believe that no one has any information on the techniques used to preserve the wood of gun carriages, paint, stain, etc. We know this even about longbows."

You have to remember -- this is not a proper weapon like a bow or even a musket. It's not the *gun* either -- this is just *machinery*. No-one writes this stuff down because in 1642, it's *obvious* what colour a gun carriage is…

Easy way – Treat Cavaliers as Tories, paint them blue, Roundheads as Labour, paint them red. Fits in with the New Model Army as well.

going back a few years we had a full scale Saker in our Sealed Knot regiment. Yes thats right full scale. The gun was built and owned by a father and son who (IIRC) were metalurgists at the the Loughborough University. They carried out a great deal of research on the manufacture of the barrel and the carriage. The gun was regarded as a good enough representation to be used at the Tower Armouries.

Now there may be flaws in the research but they built the gun with a cast iron barrel and the carriage was painted using a dusky pink colour. I think because the paint contained red lead or was intended to simulate that.

As a direct source you might try Nick Hall of the Royal Armouries. He is the "Keeper of Artillery" based at Fort Nelson near Portsmouth.

great. Pink horses suggested, now pink guns!

A gun was an expensive item. someone has the information recorded, somewhere.

A gun was an expensive item. someone has the information recorded, somewhere.

This thread would suggest otherwise. Besides, the gun may have been expensive. The carriage? Not so much.

Wheelwright knocks up the wheels, blacksmith fits the tyres, a wainwright makes the carriage and assembles it. Not really more remarkable than a haycart is it?

But you can only see a grey box here.

I have it from best of authorities that they used Americana DA114 Light Cinnamon. Of course it wasn't called Americana at the time. I believe it was called Colonialana. But I'm sure it was DA114 Light Cinnamon, at least for the Royalist guns. But I believe it was used for the Parliamentarian guns as well.

Rich

I think that there is a quote in CROMWELL's ARMY that the New model guns were painted a "Fair lead colour" – whhich is generally taken to be red lead, the colour of Dutch guns during the mid to late C17th

Certainly the Royal Armouries/ECW Society saker has been painted that for many a year

conrad sage…
Can you please tell me how wood was preserved?

If the carriages were constructed from oak or chestnut preservative would have been un-necesary as high levels of tannic acid- a natural preservative are present. However the cut surface of the wood quickly oxidises to a flat silvery grey colour so any application of paint or varnish would be purely aesthetic. As an aside tannic acid also causes an inky blue discolouration of the wood where it comes into contact with ferrous metal which it also corrodes slowly over time.