"French Artillery 1812 Russia" Topic

I have just started building a French napoleonic force based on 3rd Corps of Ney during 1812 Russian campaign.

I have a book of G.F Nafziger titled "Napoleon's invasion of Russia" with a lot of orbats. In the orbats, Nafziger stated that the french foot and horse artillery battery's attached to the Divisions were equiped with 6 pdrs guns. I wonder if this is correct for the foot battery's. Didn't they used the 8 pdrs instead of 6 pdrs? Or was the 8pdr used later in service?

Chris

Chris,
The 8's and 4's were the older, and mostly retired, Gribeauval system – The French forces that entered Russia were supposed to be equipped with the later Year XI system, which was composed of 6 and 12 pdrs. Napoleon considered the 6 pdr an excellent compromise between the 4 and 8 pdr's of the earlier system. Someone else may know if the transition was complete by June 1812. The Gribeauval system certainly remained in use by those forces found in the Peninsular. But after the losses of 1812 – potentially anything was pressed into service for the 1813-14 campaigns.

8-lbrs were the original Gribeuval system gun for the foot artillery, while the 4-lbrs were for the horse artillery. Napoleon decided to replace both of these with a 6-lbr around 1808 (not sure of the date). After the losses in Russia, the 8-lbr may have made a re-appearance, but I'm not with my sources right now.

Dear Chris
The only Gribeauval guns in use in Russia were the 32x Gribeauval 4-pdrs as Regimental Artillery to the Young Guard.

No Gribeauval 8-pdrs were sent to Russia. The French had completely re-equipped with the AnXI [M1803] 6-pdrs and 12-pdrs. Some Gribeauval 12-pdrs were in use but not many. The Gribeauval 6.4in howitzer was obsolete. These were replaced by M1795 6.4in Long Porte howitzers with many of the 12-pdr batteries. Otherwise the AnXI 24-pdr howitzer [also given as 5.5in. 5.62in, 5.72in etc…] with a calibre of 150mm was in use.

The carriages for the AnXI system were modified in 1808 due to the French running out of money. Other excuses have been given but looking at the finances shows a little guilding. The woodwork was AnXI with Gribeauval 8-pdr wheels and metalwork.

Interesting the Kingdom of Italy seem to have used the AnXI system without modification. The few extent pieces seem to suggest this but more photographic evidence required.

The Saxons took M1766 4-pdr Schnellfeuergeschutz as battalion guns.

Guard, I-IV, VII, VIII, IX and XI Corps, I-III Cavalry Corps were completely armed with AnXI or derivative guns [Italian AnXI, Wurtemberg, Westphalian and Saxon] so had compatible ammunition & equipment. Regimental Artillery was Austrian 3-pdrs. The Polish Division in IX Corps had Prussian guns rebored in Dresden in Saxony.

Interestingly this left the Northern flank of V (Polish), VI (Bavarian) and X (Prussian) Corps with Prussian calibre guns.

This is explored in Dawson and Summerfield (2008) French Artillery to 1824, DP&G.

There were no recorded use of the 8-pdr as a field gun in the liberation of Germany as far as I am aware. The 4- and 8-pdr was still in declining use in the Peninsular. No 4- and 8-pdrs were used in the 100 days.

Stephen

One note on French Allied artillery who entered Spain. At the border, the French had them exchange 6pdr guns for older 4pdr and some older 6pdr guns. This may have been one source for giving the horse guns 6pdrs in replacement of the 4pdrs.

Acording to Johnson's organization book 'Napoleonic Armies' in 1812 the foot batteries were 6pdrs. Most Fench Line Corps used 3pdr attached to regiments for direct support and divisional general support as 6dr foot batteries and 12 pdr batteries at Corps.
By 1815 most Line divisions had a 6dr foot battery attached in direct support. A 12 pdr battery was attached to the Corps as General support.

"8-lbrs were the original Gribeuval system gun for the foot artillery, while the 4-lbrs were for the horse artillery."-M

Actually, the 8-pounder was the preferred weapon of the horse artillery, and these elite crews proved to be the biggest opponent's to the switch over to 6-pounders of the new System Year XI.

Dear Rudy
The Spanish used Gribeauval guns and calibres so the ammunition and ordnance was not an issue. A considerable amount of the French Artillery was formally Spanish in the Peninsular.

The objection to the AnXI 6-pdr was typically vitriolic as any change in ordnance was for the French.

M1732 to M1765 Gribeauval,
M1765 Gribeauval [modified in 1792] to AnXI
AnXI back to a "officially" Gribeauval in 1814 [Royalist]
To M1824 Valee System
To Napoleon III system. etc…

The last of the 8-pdr guns issued to the horse artillery was surrendered in 1810.

In tests the 6-pdr was as good as the 8-pdr it replaced [apart from those where the 6-pdr was overcharged] and far superior to the 4-pdr. Logistically much better as lighter, smaller gunpowder charge and possible to use foreign ammunition.

The 8-pdr had been sucessfully used by the Light Artillery from the 1790s. Interestingly the use of the Wurst may well have been into the 1805/6 rather than earlier.

Stephen

I had heard that the French used An XI 6lb barrels on Gribeauval carriages in Russia. Is that accurate?

The 1911 Petrov catalog of cannon then in the Moscow Kremlin, which were captured in the 1812 campaign, lists:

26 4 lb Frence;
71 3 lb Austrian;
54 3 lb Prussian;
8 4 lb Saxon;
15 4 lb Italian;
22 4 lb Dutch; and
7 3 lb Polish pieces.

Dear Don
No the French did not use AnXI 6-pdr on Gribeauval 4-pdr or 8-pdr carriages in Russia.

Dear Steve
How can I obtain a copy of the Petrov catalog. Can you check the Italian 4-pdrs as I think they are 3-pdr calibre ie 75mm rather than 84mm.

Stephen