"Modern Canadian armour and Orbat info needed." Topic

Hi all, I am sloooowwwly building a mechanized brigade in 6mm (1/285) based on the Canadian 4th Mech Bde in Lahr during the late 80's & early 90's. So far I have the Leopard C1 Regt, 1 Mech Btn in M113's & 1 in Grizzly's and also the Artillery Btn with M109's, basing for "Modern Spearhead"/ "Combined Arms" as well as "CWC. I have the relevant "Micromark" orbat's plus info gained thru the Mod Spearhead & Micro mayhem sites etc, But I would like some help with a few questions…..

I am aware that apparently when Canada first started using LAV's(8x8's) they apparently replaced the Delco 25mm turrets with pintal .50cal's for reserve units and fitted the turrets to M113's called the M113A1/25 similar to us Australians using Scorpion 76mm turrets. Was this a trial only and if not who got them and in what numbers? What suggestions for a conversion, I plan using LAV turrets on M163 Vulcan hulls.

I believe that in the later years units equiped with Cougars and Grizzly's took their AVGP's to Germany at least for manuevers I am assuming 12th Regiment Blinde du Canada & 2nd Bn, Royal 22e Regiment, but would like to know more especially if the 6x6's were kept for the whole rotation or if the incomming units switched over to the Leopards and M113's?

The Skyguard 35mm AA system – How many gun mounts per Radar unit were there, two or four?

Finally, as far as I know nobody makes the NM142 TUA, now in use, in 6mm, does anyone have a conversion suggestion.

Thanks in advance for your help

John

Have you ever read First Clash by Kenneth Macksey?

(Originally written as an official manual in 1985. This book details the efforts of a Canadian mechanized brigade to hold up the Soviet advance for 48 hours during the early stages of WWIII in Central Europe. The text is focused at the Battle Group/Combat Team level, following the activity from the assembly area to performing a withdrawal under pressure.)*

*From a review on Amazon.

It would have a lot of the info that you want and is also a great read.

Mike

Wow. I'd forgotten First Clash. I read that back in '87 or '88, I think. It's great miniature gaming fodder for the Cold War.

First Clash is a great read. It predates the AVGP family though. I have a copy around here somewhere if you want the OB's out of it though,

John

The 4th Cdn Mech Bde in Germany was fully tracked as far as I am aware. No wheeled vehicles were used for the fighting echelon. So for the vehicles you are fine with what you have listed. For the tanks the Leopard C1, Inf carriers were the M113. Command CPs were the M577 Queen Mary as we call it. There were M548s for cargo carrying, ammo, POL etc. As well there was the TUA. The arty used the M109 SPH. Armd Recce was done in the Lynx Recce veh (similar to the M114). Replaced later by the Coyote (25mm Delco turret) in '93 or '94. Most likely too late for Germany.

As for LAVs we used the Bison 8 wheeled veh with a pintle mount 5.56mm gun. Originally designed for the reserves, but soon incorporated into the Reg force as a CP and general purpose carrier. The Coyote Recce veh came in later, after we pulled out of Germany IIRC. I don't recall any being sent to Germany, but could be wrong. The 6x6 LAVs were the Cougar (tank trainer) mounting a 75mm gun, and the Grizzly Inf carrier mounting a small turret with a .50 cal and a 5.56 or 7.62mm MG.

Most wheeled vehs were used only in Canada for the most part at this time. The Grizzlies were deployed on some UN Ops as were the Cougars. Somalia and Bosnia being most prevalent.

The M113s were gradually replaced about '96/97 by the LAV III with a 25mm Delco turret. This came to prominence when we moved into Southern Afghanistan.

The only turrets mounted on the M113s other than TUA are the ones removed from the Grizzly veh and mounted on the M113. This did not happen until late in the '90s, sometime around '97 or later.

I servrd with 2 PPCLI in Baden-Soellingen '85to "88.All rifle coy. vehicles were m-113.Combat support coy.(Mortars,recce.,Armour Defence Platoon(actually consisted of 16 M-113 TOW vehicles in four groups of two dets each.)
We received thermal gear and pioneered its use,big laff on us,we ended up doubling our role into recce and f.o.b. roles as opposed to shoot and scoot defense in depth tactics.
Recce ran Lynx,nice because unlike our M113s they had a traverse and elevation control and a lower silhouette.

Served,doh!

No Grizzlies in 4 CMBG, ever.

fitted the turrets to M113's called the M113A1/25

Never heard of this.
--
Tim
B Squadron, The RCD

Thanks for all your comments.

I found the reference to AVGP's in Europe; "Armies of NATO's Central Front" by Messr's Isby & Kamps, Published by Janes 1985, states 24 AVGP's of different types were sent to Europe for exercises in a NATO enviroment with 1er Btn, Royal 22e Regiment in late 1982. Would love to see the post exercise assessment of the AVGP especially in light of the "explosion" in the use of wheeled LAV's around the world since.
The reference to the M113(25) was from "Modern Equipment Handbook" by the late great Bruce Rea-Taylor.

I was a trooper in 4/19th PWLH during the 80's & early 90's working with M113 LRV's & MRV's and sometimes we wished we had wheeled Armd Veh' instead so as to hit the road more often.

Thanks all

I also went for the relevant Micro Mark lists.

I saw photo's of R22R grizzlies in Germany for an exercise,may have been a Reforger.

Haveen't seen but have read about the grizzly turret being added to M113.

Frankss

Check this out.

link

24 AVGP's of different types were sent to Europe for exercises in a NATO enviroment with 1er Btn, Royal 22e Regiment in late 1982. Would love to see the post exercise assessment of the AVGP

I can tell you a bit about this, based on my NCOs' comments who were involved with something similar or perhaps this is the same exercise. There were trials conducted that were, the NCOs felt, designed to show the AVGP's unsuitabliltiy for NW Europe.

Hell, the machines were unsuitable for virtually every bit of terrain in Canada except a paved road.

<Extreme Vehmenence – apologies in adavce>

They were horible top heavy vehicles that have continued to roll and kill our soldiers in Afghanistan with even the later 8 wheeled versions.

They were terrible vehicles, especially the Cougar, that were foisted on our armoured soldiers because some dirtbag politician or lobby group from London Ontario managed to convince the government of the time that wheeled vehicles, which GM Diesel dvision in London could produce were the answer to the depleted armour regiments after the government cheaped out and only bought enought of the Leopards to equip the regiment in Germany, a training squadron in CFB Gagetown, and gunnery and driver trainers. There were three armoured regiments left with nothing, so these disgustingly unsafe and inappropriate vehicles were touted as "tank trainers".

I have no respect for the 8 wheeled LAVs as I believe they are too big – designed by a bunch of idiots in London who only had access to the Mowag Pirhana licence for what was designed as an internal security vehicle. Some of these fools were members of the local reserve unit there and bigwigs in GM Diesel Division and many of us felt they unforgiveably betrayed the Royal Canadain Armoured Corps. The only people in the armour corps who ever sang the praises of the Cougar were these goofballs.

I've mentioned its poor performance – while the 8 wheeled version's Xcountry performance is wonderful because of its weight evenly distributed across four sets of wheels, the 6 wheeled abortion had a large space between the rear four wheels and the front two. The Detroit Diesel was in the front of the vehicle, so this meant that whenever you dived into any low ground, practically the whole weight of the vehicle was transferred to the front two wheels which stood up to it as well as any car or truck would in mud or snow – it got stuck all the time and had difficulty crossing any trench that was deeper than about 6 inches – it was precisely this characteristic I've described in this paragraph that was used "to advantage" by the afore mentioned rigged (as believed by my NCOs) trials in Europe that sealed the fate of ever deploying these monstrosities in 4 CMBG.

Sorry, for the vehmenence, but as you can tell, many of us detested this vehicle.
--
Tim

Hi Tim,
While I appreciate your feelings and local experiences; I'm a little surprised that if the AVGP's are really so bad why were they taken to Bosnia?

As I mentioned I worked around M113 LRV fitted with the Cadillac Gage T50 turret (as used on the "Commando V100 A/C) and the M113 MRV with the Scorpion 76mm turret; while they were great vehicles, being a army reserve unit more time was spent on general maintenance etc than actual "track time". One of our main tasks at the time was Medium Range Route Recon and as such a wheeled Armd Veh would have allowed us to head out the gate Friday night and return Sunday night having spent the time gaining experience & honing skills.

Australia aquired 8x8 LAV's as a result of the then Defence Minister seeing them in use in America and promptly dropped them in the lap of the army who were initially upset as they had little or no say in the aquisition. Since then the users of the LAV's think they're great and when it is mentioned that Reserve units should get some the Reg's sprout some rubbish about LAV's being to difficult to operate for partimers. Considering Canadian reserves have had them for alot longer than our Reg's show how much the Reg's know.
My apologies for my rant just then….

X-country deficancies aside do you or anyone else know what the AVGP's were like to work and live with, ie general maintenance, ride comfort, turret ergonomics,our T50 turrets put the 50 cal and 30 cal MG's side by side ofset to the right were as the Grizzly's "1 metre" turret has one gun on each side of the crew commander.

Thanks John.

Still after info on the Skyguard 35mm AA system, guns per Radar and where & who had them. Also suggestions on modelling the M113 TUA (aka NM142) in 6mm.

Finally thanks to those who mentioned th book "First Clash" I plan to grab a copy thru ABE books very soon.

John Mc

I'm a little surprised that if the AVGP's are really so bad why were they taken to Bosnia

Because that's all we had available. Plus, they were deployed as convoy escort, which, on roads, was a barely acceptable duty for them.

They were also used in Somalia and came under fire from T-55s at one point. Fortunately the T-55 crews were untrained and useless and no hits occured.

Do you or anyone else know what the AVGP's were like to work and live with, ie general maintenance, ride comfort, turret ergonomics

I lived and slept in Cougars (6by6 with Scorpion turret – it tended to fall apart a lot, not very sturdy) for nearly three years. Compared to a tank, it was very comfortable and spacious – there was a huge amount of wasted space in the back where the infantry carrier Grizzly carried troops. There was even a fold down bench there one could lie on. Huge amounts of room for crew kit.

The Grizzly I can't comment on too much in the above regard as I did not live in them, but worked with them all the time in infantry/armour coop. The infantry in the rear passenger compartment sat back to back to have access to the firing and view ports much like a BMP. While there was sufficient headroom, the angled sides meant for little leg room and, in fact, an infantry section could not ride the vehicle wearing their webbing and kit. This meant that when the call went across the net: All stations india one, [for example] DISMOUNT, DISMOUNT, DISMOUNT! what would happen was like something out of a bad Monty Python moview: the Grizzlies would pull up, the rear doors (there was no ramp) would swing open and the infantry would stagger out, often tripping, and have to stop to put on and clip together their webbing for a moment before deploying.

the Reg's sprout some rubbish about LAV's being to difficult to operate for partimers.

Stuff and nonsense – the one redeeming thing about wheeled vehicles is that they are much, much easier to maintain as compared to a tracked vehicle which means more time to practice actual tactics as opposed to torquing end connectors and other miseries of track maintenance!

I don't care what anyone says – anything that came from these pieces of garbage, and that includes the 8 wheeled LAVs, is doomed to the same top heavy limitations the LAVs in Afghanistan that have killed some of our soldiers due to rolling.
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Tim

There was a thread here a while back which discussed callsigns within 4 CMBG. I've got some M113s sitting here awaiting their callsigns, so could someone please clue me up on how the callsign system worked?

Thanks.

I was a gunner on a Grizzly for a year in my early infantry days in 1PPCLI. Unlike the Cougar of Ditto Bird, the Griz was crowded when full 9 nine section was in there. Section sizes included the vehicle crew so an AVGP dismounts 7 guys. Common practice was to dismount with only water bottles on your web belt and magazines in your pockets. We had good fun in them and only got stuck when we wanted a break. The M61 Sight was impossible to use so during live fires we cracked the hatch and used the AA sight on ground targets.

1, 2, 3, 4 are your line companies, 5 and 6 are your combat support elements, 8 is admin coy. 9 is the command element and 9A, B, C, D are the Coy CP, 2IC, CSM and CQ. X1, X2, X3 and X4 where X is the line company number are the platoons; add 9, A, B, C for the platoon comdr and his section commanders. Thus 39C is the C Coy CSM. 57 is mortars, 55 is AT, 6 is recce, 62 is snipers. 0 is battalion CP and 9 (Called "NINER") is the CO. The perfix "india" on a call sign means infantry, "golf" is artillery and I forgot what the zipperheads are. Thus GOLF 31 on your radio net is an Artillery Troop Commander for C Battery, 1 Troop and your assigned FOO. Echo is engineers.

If the arty regt is RCA rather than RCHA, the batteries are numbered and are considered senior in terms of their numbers thus, 3 RCA has 89 and 115 bty therefore 89 bty is call sign 1 and 115 is call sign 2.

"57 is mortars,"

If memory serves and we're going back 30+ years Mortars were 51 and/or 53, at least in 3RCR circa early 1980's