"Who were the elite in various armed forces?" Topic

It would be interesting to compare which arms of service were considered the elite in each nation's armed forces.

In the US Army, the engineers historically received the best and brightest from West Point, which was (maybe still is), in effect, a school of (military) engineering. Those who couldn't quite make the engineers usually went into the artillery. Infantry was almost always at the bottom of the list. During WW2 one could argue that the USAAF got the best and brightest young non-West Pointers (volunteers and draftees). Of course the Navy also absorbed a great many well-educated men, either thru Annapolis or other commissioning programs. And the Marines got the gung-ho, if not particularly intellectual, types.

I suspect that in the UK the Royal Navy got first pick. Maybe some Brits here can enlighten us on that and other priorities.

In Germany, I would say that the Luftwaffe probably got first pick, and, once Blitzkrieg had proven itself (if not before), the panzer arm probably got the best officers in the Heer.

In the USSR, if you were really smart, you probably got purged as a potential threat to Stalin and/or the Party in general. But once the Great Patriotic War began, who got the choicest manpower? The Red Air Force? Tank forces? I don't know.

Any thoughts? Data? Musings?

Once conscription hit in Britain, you went where the need was greatest, unless you had done OCS or university air squadrons etc. This generally meant Navy, Army, Air Force, Mines etc. Of course you could circumvent it to a point by volenteering before your call up.

FreddBloggs: But the real question is, once they got you drafted, where would they send the best and brightest? Also, which branch got priority for the money and other resources?

The US Army tested and filtered its canidates. Technical branches in desending order got the best, and usually (I'm generalizing, but not by much) went to the infantry. Still works that way today in general.

Dan

My dad was in a USAAF meteorology unit. The unit only took college grads, although dad always said the actual science was High School level.

He was on a troop ship during the battle of Leyte Gulf with an infantry unit and he said it was something of a shock interacting with them after basically being on an island with a bunch of college grads for months. Of course, college attendance was *much* lower in the mid-twentieth century. I'm shocked when I talk to even Ivy League college grads today…a CEO of multi-million dollar company was nonplussed when I told him Iran is not an Arab country.

The class system in WWII was still,and (despite the nay-sayers these days, is still) very much alive in the British forces.
Men from certain families, who went to the best public schools and oxbridge went into the Guards regts (ocasionally the Navy) and probably not the RAF, they would NEVER go into a unit as "tradesman-like" as the Engineers … this is still true to a lesser extent even today.

Lots of Oxbridge men went into the RAF at the start of the war as they were part of the University Air Squadrons, so were already basic trained pilots.

If you were O/R you went to the most in need of manpower posting at that precise point. If you had a talent or skill you might get lucky, but the numbers were big enough that it was done by batch.

Officer Conscripts also got posted to where the vacancies were, although they did try and seperate out those with engineering skills etc but it was a lottery.

The basic principle was fill the manpower need, then shake out the skills from there.

In answer to your initial query I would say the pick went to the RAF and then to Bomber Command.

Jeff: I was in the USAF Air Weather Service for a while in the late '60s (as a personnel officer). If there was any science involved in predicting the weather, I never noticed it. A chimp with a dart board would do about as well. ;)

I know that when I entered the USAF on a special deal for college grads that sent me straight to Officer's Training School (OTS), we were sorted by our college majors. As a history major I was only given 3 choices: Intelligence, Personnel, and Administration. I asked for them in that order, and got my 2nd choice -- which is the main reason I didn't make it a career (boring!).

Technical branches in desending order got the best …

Ah, but what was the descending order?

I'm shocked when I talk to even Ivy League college grads today…a CEO of multi-million dollar company was nonplussed when I told him Iran is not an Arab country.

Probably an MBA -- I think all they learn is how to count beans. I knew guys at college that didn't know the difference between the Crimean War and the Korean War or between Austria and Australia!

U-boat crews were very high-quality personnel, so certainly they need to be included as a German elite.

12.15PM BST CONSUMED 6 PINTS.

It is widely acknowledged that the US recruitment policy in WW2 resulted in a substandard Infantry arm. Every recruit with potential/specialist skills went to somewhere else.

In the UK, policy was slightly better. Even if you had a specialist skill/aptitude, conscription policy ensured you were sent where you were needed, not where you wanted to be.

The exception to this was for the 'upper' classes. Your career path(even under conscription) could be determined simply by whether you went to the 'right' school.

In answer to donlowry's question: the RAF got the best, the RN second and the Army last. (note this only applies to the 'upper' classes, the rank & file were evenly distributed)

In the British Army the Infantry was certainly regarded as inferior up until at least 12 years ago.

I went to take the Queen's shilling and was warmly met at the recruiting office. After some discussion and romancing, the chap to whom I spoke was horrified when I said that I wished to join the combat infantry rather than something more glam.

He told me that a "gentleman" of my type may find a commission in the Infantry unpleasant – had I considered military intelligence or even the Royal Navy?

We parted company shortly afterward.

Interestingly the Jesuits were less picky.

Well my Father was an Infantry SGT in WWII … And I was an Infantry Officer '79-'90(not West Point but ROTC) … Thanks don … I'd be insulted but you know us Infantry types … Maybe I'm confused (cause I was an Infantry Officer bred from an Infantry SGT and my Mother, a "Rosie the Riveter" type who worked on P-39s), Elite to me and probably most combat arms types see Airborne, Paras, Rangers, Commandoes, SF, etc., etc. as "Elites" … From what I'm reading here, if you were not an Academy Grad, and you couldn't get hired to bus tables at Denny's you might as well join the Army or Marines as a Grunt … And based on my experience in 4 Infantry Bns back in the '80, I found many infantry officers fairly intelligent and able to think quickly on their feet, so to speak, in tight situations … But I guess since we were all morons, none of us noticed what Neanderthals we really were … I'm greatful you cleared that up for me …

My dad used to tell me that when he was drafted for vietnam (probably around 67/68ish), they gave you test at the beginning. He scored well and the offered him a chance for officer's school but he had heard all kinds of stories about Lieutenants being the most common casualty -- he said they were famous for getting shot through the gold/metallic bar on their helmets. So he ended up in combat engineers.
The dummies got pole-climbing, and of course the real morons were made cooks.

He used to say during basic training (or maybe it was after he came back?) that he'd be in "typing" class, and they'd come out for lunch to have sandwich, and every so often they'd see that one of the pole climbers had fallen, or taken a huge splinter of wood to the arm or such…and then somebody'd say "here comes the meat wagon" … and then you'd see em being carried off. He said alot of the black guys got stuck with pole-climbing.

In the Soviet armed forces the best recruits were usually sent to the usual suspects – in no particular order…air force, navy, artillery, engineers, tanks.

Within the infantry the true elite soldiers were in the VDV, as you'd expect. Apart from that razvedchik and sub machine gun companies were formed from the better soldiers – again, as you'd expect.

Outside the armed forces proper you get the Border Guards, Internal troops and OMSBON.

Its true that the original German U Boat men were elite. But they were not replaced with men of equal quality because it took too long to train them to that standard. By 1943 many boats were incapable of carrying out tactics the earlier ones had used and inexperienced accounted for many of the high losses. The German experience was that they could build U Boats faster than they could provide top quality crews.
The situation was not as bad for some other navies because they had a larger pre-war pool to promote. But everytime a German U Boat was sunk from 1939-41, it took with it all the men who would have become officers of new boats, senior NCO's and experienced hands.

Based on their performance I'd rate the British airborne, Commandos, and the American Airborne and Rangers as Elites.

The SS started the war with extremely stringent entrance criteria.
They got a lot less picky as the war progressed and they used up all those tall blond fellows.

My understanding is that (for the British at least) elites like the Paras and (Army) Commandos were recruited by drawing talented volunteers from the ranks. Qualification was tough, as was the reception training.

My grandfather was posted to the Royal artillery on account of career training as a post office (telephone) engineer.
Lots of men with less usable skills got assigned to infantry regiments.

IIRC the StuG crews were always regarded as the Elite of the Heer.

The Commandos in the Second World War were recruited from specially picked recruits.

The main criteria seemed to be that they were intelligent, independant, psychopaths. Scary blokes!

My paternal grandfather was a pre-war football referee so ended up as a signaller in an heavy AA Regiment, whereas my maternal grandfather shovelled coal in the London docks so naturally ended up as a bridging engineer in the RE. Good matching of skills there.

Uncle Joe (sales rep for a biscuit company) also ended up in the RE driving a bulldozer and Uncle Stan who never visibly did a days work in his life became an armourer in the RAF.

My step grandfather was pre-war navy, so his wartime career was a bit more predictable. Murmansk then Landing Craft.

Well in the Hellenic WWII army

Elite: Combat wise: Evzones, The Mountaineer Battalion, Commandos (Ieroloxites) after 1941. Royal Guard.

Elite: Brain wise: Conscript Officers, Navy Officers and NCOs, Air-Force pilots, Artillery Officers. Not sure though.

It should be noted that at that time people could pick up technical skills while conscripts.

Someone once said that intelligent men did not make good soldiers because they knew too much about what could happen to them if they stuck their necks out!

We are missing one *important* elite in the list of US troops (at least if you're measuring by wartime impact): Submarine crews. Just like airborne, volunteers for the duty, and trained intensively. Officers were selected for aggressiveness.

The COMSUBPAC HQ building in Pearl Harbor has a map of the Pacific with Japanese flags painted at the location of every confirmed sinking in WW2, meatballs for merchants/rising sun for warships, and the entire pacific west of the international dateline is red and white.

Then again, I'm a touch biased: I am a bubblehead.

Conscription meant go where you were sent my Dad did volunteer in mid 1940 so he and his mates had the choice and went for the RAF, my uncle volunteering later chose the RAF Regiment another uncle waited for conscription and was sent down the mines as a Bevin boy a vital job and in many cases almost as dangerous as active service.

In WW2 the big selection for the Guards was height yet another uncle became a Coldstreamer just because he was 6ft 3 inches (became a sergeant with the Guards armoured div).

Most of the elite untis chose from existing regiments – no one joined as a commando or para, just as no one joined as anything until they were selected after initial training.

so luck may well be a factor

Actually Britain was a lot less class conscious than many would have you believe, particularly in light of the mapower crunch. Widespread commissioning from the ranks (just as there had been in the Great War). Need was pre-eminent. Quite a few public school boys got the shock of their lives, when, instead of being commissioned they were sent to work as miners to relieve the manpower shortage. Try googling Bevin Boys some time.

Elite are relative to the function they perform. In terms of personal hygiene, I suspect Mobile Bath Units had no peer.

[U.S. Army]

"Technical branches in desending order got the best, and usually (I'm generalizing, but not by much) went to the infantry. Still works that way today in general."

Respectfully, no it doesn't. The tendency in the last decade is that volunteers who are joining because they want to do a few years and then go to college, join the combat arms (esp the infantry) for two reasons: 1) much bigger signing bonuses and 2) since they only plan on being in for a few years, they are attracted to serving in the combat arms, because that's what the Army is all about.

The other tendency is for those volunteers who are looking long-term, and either want to get useful civilian job skills, or serve in the military as a career, tend to pick the support or service support career fields, such as mechanic, truck driver, IT, etc.

The net effects of these two trends is that the junior enlisted in the infantry (not necessarily the senior enlisted) tend to have higher numbers of bright college-bound boys, and the enlisted in the service support ranks tend to be people who may not have had a lot of other choices in life.

These are generalisations, but they add up to a big difference from how the Army "used to be".

In WW2 the RN was brought up to strength largely by the RNVR and only had a smallish percentage of conscripts (as the RN was already huge)..The bulk of conscripts went either into the Army or RAF as thier services had to expand massively from peacetime……….Until the last months of the war when nearly all new conscripts got drafted into the RN as AA gunners--Experience from Okinawa showed when we invaded Japan these chaps were most likely to get the chop so fresh bods were needed..All very colod and statistical!!!
In my family my Grandfather was in the Merchant Navy so stayed there as 1st Mate (he went everywhere and was sunk once!) My other grandad served in the RN in the Fleet Air Arm and ended up a CPO in charge of a warehouse, my gret Uncle was in the Black Watch and joined up a few months before the war started and my other Great Uncle was in North Africa with the Desert Rats in the RASC driving lorries….

Blimey archie,

wonder if your great uncle knew my uncle who was RASC lorry-driver in the Desert!

Pre-20th century gentry, it was said, used to send the first son to read Law (as they would eventually manage the estate, possibly be a magistrate etc), second son to read Divinity and become a vicar, third son to the navy and fourth to the army. Some form of not too many eggs in one basket maybe, and avoiding competition for inheriting the estate perhaps.

I've heard that in Napoleonic times artillery was most technical and required the most intelligent men, then infantry, then cavalry. Compare Napoleon and Murat!

Timbo--my Great Uncle (who dies in the 60's so never met him) was called William Gilchrist--A Glaswegian…

As SU was very practical in their choices (well, apart of purges, etc.;)if you were driving tractor in kolkhoz, you would be preferred for tanks or mechanized artillery, if you were a sailor, even on river ships, you'd be in navy. Air force before the war had recruits from numerous flying schools, that were mainly in cities. So I'd say that before the war Air force was true elite, especially those, who fought in Spain, or Khasan and Khalhin-Gol. During the battle of Moscow, there was even a unit, that consisted entirely of chef-pilots of several air factories, that operated for some time, until depleted Air force got more pilots trained.
During the war, Guard units were introduced (after Elnya) and these units were considered elite among similar units. Even within guard units there were elite units sometimes (like "hunters" squadroons that were formed later in war from best fighter pilots that were allowed free engagement and duels, unlike other units.

tuscaloosa is correct … period …

"Its true that the original German U Boat men were elite. But they were not replaced with men of equal quality because it took too long to train them to that standard. "

That statement is true for just about all the German armed services as the war progressed. The new recruits in falschirmjager divisions of 1944 weren't nearly as good or as well-trained as those of 1940. That doesn't mean they weren't still elite relative to the rest of the aremed forces.

The trouble with Eliteness is that if a unit feels and is treated as an elite it will generally behave as such and provide better service than a run of the mill unit--White the quality of the U-Boats crew declined their standing, fanaticism and morale stayed quite high…As an elite they were pampered and given better rations etc but in return they gave fearsome commitment--EG 90% loss rate (and 100% in the Arctic)…

Skills couldn't always save you from the infantry :) My dad was a trained pilot at the start of WWII. After Pearl Harbor he tried to enlist in the Air Corps, but because he worked in an aircraft factory they turned him down and sent him back to work building Waco gliders. By 1945 they didn't need any more gliders but they sure needed riflemen. So my dad was drafted into the infantry. Fortunately, the war ended before he was sent overseas.

Legion 4: Sorry if you or all infantrymen felt insulted. That certainly was not my intention. Perhaps I should have asked what services or arms of service were "considered" elite (at the time) or got priorities for human and other material. That does not mean that good men did not serve in other branches, sometimes even by choice. I had an older cousin who was wounded in Italy during WW2. (I think he was drafted.) He served in both the infantry and the engineers (enlisted). (I remember seeing his overseas caps with both arm-of-service pipings, lt. blue and red&white respectively.) Several of my uncles served in WW1, all in the infantry, I believe, tho one (the oldest) was a medic.

My knowledge of West Point comes mostly from reading about the ACW and its officers. In those days (at least) graduating cadets were allowed to choose their assignments (among the postings available) in the order of their class standing, and those at the top of their class almost always chose the engineers; next was the artillery; then the cavalry; and infantry last. An obvious reason for choosing the engineers in the peace-time Army was that it might lead to a high-paying civilian engineering job (looks good on your resume'). Lee, 2nd in his class, was an engineer (tho later switched to the cavalry to get a promotion); Grant, in the middle of his class, went to the 4th Infantry. Guess which one wound up surrendering to the other!

No problem don … I was just a little insulted … Since I've been a civilian (I got out in '90), it never ceases to amaze me how little generally most people know about the military. Now most here have a pretty good working knowlegde or better of military subjects, history etc. I understand what you were asking, but again most combat arms types as I said, consider Paras, Rangers, etc. as "elite" … I believe you are correct by re-phasing your question to who got priority of men and material … I've served with many West Point Officers, and I believe we've had this discussion before, good leaders are good leaders regardless. And unless one has served as an Infantryman(or Combat Engineer, Tanker, etc.) … they really have little to no idea … I believe that a combat arms leader has as much knowlegde, ability and skill in his field as any professional in the civilian world … But of course I could be biased …

"My knowledge of West Point comes mostly from reading about the ACW and its officers. In those days (at least) graduating cadets were allowed to choose their assignments (among the postings available) in the order of their class standing, and those at the top of their class almost always chose the engineers; next was the artillery; then the cavalry; and infantry last. An obvious reason for choosing the engineers in the peace-time Army was that it might lead to a high-paying civilian engineering job (looks good on your resume')"

Just as a reccomendation donlowry and WWII related :). You might like to read this book.I own a copy and it is a great and interesting read.It talks quite a bit about the choices of what branch that new officers took and what thier thoughts were. It was very fascinating look into military life up to WWII. Its the "The Regulars: The American Army, 1898-1941" by Edward M. Coffman.
link

Robert

Archstanton73:
"In WW2 the RN was brought up to strength largely by the RNVR and only had a smallish percentage of conscripts (as the RN was already huge)."
True to an extent. However, the RN's first call for extra Officers, and crews to a lesser extent, was the RNR. RNR personnel were already trained, at least in ship handling and navigation as far as the Officers were concerned, and RNR Seamen were already seamen! RNR Officers were MN Officers who had an RNR commission, they usually, but not always, did some RN training, but were experienced sea-Officers. RNR Seamen were either those RN seamen who had done their time and remained on the reserve, or, MN seamen whose ship was taken into RN service, like the majority of the crews of the "Admiralty Made Coffins" (AMCs) HMS Jervis Bay, or HMS Rawalpindi. RNVR people were amateurs who had an aptitude or pre-existing interest in sea matters. For example, they'd been yachtsmen, or owned a pleasure cruiser. I've spoken elsewhere in these pages of the late father of a friend of mine who was 4th Engineer on Royal Mail Line's "Alcantara", and who became a Sub-Lieutenant (E) RNR overnight when RMS Alcantara (Royal Mail Ship) became HMS Alcantara.

RNVR – Gentlemen trying to be Officers.
RNR – Officers trying to be gentlemen.
RN – Neither trying to be both.
As the saying went…..

As a PS, I was told a story at BRNC that explains the relative levels of ability of Britain's army.
"There was once an Officer in the Household Cavalry who was so stupid that even the others noticed."

That doesn't mean they weren't still elite relative to the rest of the aremed forces

No….but if comparing them against their enemies, it really counts a lot. The U Boat arm lost most of its experienced men. The Allied escorts only lost some. By 1943 there were absolute crack allied escort crews and escort groups. But there were no equivilents left in the U Boat arm.

Therefore who is elite and who is not becomes a very selective process that depends not only on who has the best choice of recruits. It also has to be measured against those they will be fighting.

An interesting thought re elite.

I seem to recall reading some years back, that the men of the 7th Armoured Division were considered to be battle hardened veterans during the battles in NW Europe. The Guards Armoured were 'elite' on the basis of training.

But in battle, the men of the 7th tended to be more cautious, they achieved their objectives with less casualties, but took longer to do it. None of the veterans wanted to be the last one killed.

On the other hand the Guards rushed in valiantly. Took their objectives in less time, but suffered higher casualties as a result, because they were less aware of the dangers.

"Therefore who is elite and who is not becomes a very selective process that depends not only on who has the best choice of recruits. It also has to be measured against those they will be fighting."

Now all you're doing is re-defining what 'elite' is. As I recall (and can copy and paste), this is the original question:

"It would be interesting to compare which arms of service were considered the elite in each nation's armed forces."

To me that implies within-nation comparisons. Across-nation comparisons is something quite different entirely.

"As a PS, I was told a story at BRNC that explains the relative levels of ability of Britain's army.
"There was once an Officer in the Household Cavalry who was so stupid that even the others noticed.""LOL
Yes its the aristocratic inbreeding that does it--IE James Blunt was a guards officer….But sometimes in war you NEED enthusiastic stupid people to do stupid things (like run at machine gun posts/take on the Red Army in Scorpions!!!)….

Also most MN officers/mates were commissioned into the RNR so that theyw ould be under military duristiction and control…If they were still civies then they could disobey orders!!

Across-nation comparisons is something quite different entirely.

Very true. But it would be rather important from a wargames viewpoint. Its handy to know if the guard of one army are the scum of another!

surely the most inteligent individuals would be those who, once assigned to a combat unit, inviegled themeselves positions as cooks and clerks, thus increasing their life expectancy?

"If they were still civies then they could disobey orders!!"

But would they? Or was it part of a rigid hierarchical mindset that beleived that if a ship's Third Engineer, the ship having been converted into an AMC, wasn't made into an RNR Officer he would somehow no longer be able to do his job? Or that a Second Mate on the same ship, would no longer be able to navigate or keep a watch safely, unless he became an RNR Officer? The people didn't change!

Not so christot … most combat arms types stay in combat arms … In 10+years I served in 4 Infantry Bns … And that seemed to be the norm for many Infantrymen and Tankers … So you think we're were stupid ?!!? …