"Black Watch (42nd foot) @ Quatre Bras / Strength???" Topic

Does anyone know the strength of the Black Watch at the battle of Quatre Bras (obviously before losses)?

THX in advance,

Burkhard

P.S.: As a related question… any good books on Quatre Bras that include unit strengths?

42nd foot 561 troops at Quatre Bras

Wiki here. There is some formations missing on this order of battle….

link

French are missing the 9th division for instance!

Oh great… would not have known that it was this simple… never saw detailed strength returns on Wiki!

THX a lot,

Burkhard

I don't know where Wiki gets its figures from.

Nominal Strength on 16th June 629 (that is men confirmed on medal roll).

50 killed, 11 died of wounds, 185 wounded.
Of the 61 men who lost their lives in combat at least 41 were or died of wounds received at Quatre Bras compared to 11 men at Waterloo (with the remaining 9 not recorded).

Of the 185 wounded, a massive 149 fell at Quatre Bras, compared to 25 at Waterloo (with 11 not recorded).

I can give you Company strengths too if you like.

Overall strength will do.

Started assembling the minis for the Reg. and wanted to know hw many I will need. So there is no need for individual Coys! What is your source BTW… would hate to ask online for every unit involved!

THX,

Burkhard

Figures come from the Regimental pay rolls, the medal roll and casualty rolls, all held at Kew

I've got the lot – 29,000 British at Waterloo, if anyone ever needs owt

OBs are cited from these two sources.

* Balkoski, Joseph. "Ney vs. Wellington: The Battle of Quatre Bras June 16, 1815." Strategy & Tactics, nr. 74 (May/June 1979). ISSN 0049-2310

* Hofschroer, Peter, "1815, The Waterloo Campaign, Wellington, his German Allies and the Battles of Ligny and Quatre Bras", Greenhill Books, London, 1998.

S&T 74 has Ney v Wellington and a huge article on the battle. Good read. they include all of the OBs from the battle. Where they got the figures is anyone's guess.

Don't know anything about the second source.

Lord Hills figures seem pretty close to the mark ..spot
on i would say

another source is Quatre Bras by Mike Robinson
at quatre bras it states three officers and 42 other
ranks killed

from a start point of 613 officers and men a mere 322
remained .and waterloo had not been fought!!
15 officers fourteen seargents a single drummer and
216 were wounded at during this battle

'Dispatches of … the Duke of Wellington' Vol.12, p. 486-487 has a return for the British troops on June 18, 1815 that gives about the same numbers.

link

Total Officers, NCO, Musicians and R&F = 597
Add back the '45' dead at QB = 642 before.

Cliff

nearly there!!!

Werent they seriously overun by lancers while forming square at Quatre Bras..

Cardinal, yes that's right. One of the interesting points that the stats show is how few of the very many wounded of the 42nd from Quatre Bras died – far less that the average. Which would suggest that lance wounds were rarely fatal.
This is backed up by the many accounts (which I'm sure are well known here) of soldiers surviving with a dozen or more lance wounds.

Bowden states they had 17 officers and 347 other ranks present for the 18th June (364 all ranks)

some would only be lightly wounded at QB so would have returned to the regiment for waterloo

Lord Hill do your figures include officers?

yes, officers inc. My wounded are those listed at Kew as in General Hospital or absent from muster as being "wounded 16th June". So I doubt they'd have been present at Waterloo.

There are plenty of examples of men we know received minor wounds (see Thomas Morris' of the 73rd account) who were not listed among the wounded.

14th Brookyln

i have the "compiled muster rolls from the battle of Waterloo………..listing everybody who got a medal

eg lt colonel Dick( great name) wounded quatrebras
major menries arch wounded ..and so on a so forth

will count em up for you and post all the men present after
Waterloo

best regards
Ged
gjm.figurines.co.uk

No offence but the Waterloo Medal Roll as sold by Naval & Military Press (a snip at 40GBP last time I looked) is such a flawed document as to be virtually worthless. Some regiments don't include killed, some do, some list companies twice, some don't include wounded or died of wounds, as well as countless individuals who were there and received a medal but are not in the book.
The primary sources(series WO12, WO25, Wo97 etc etc) kept at Kew are the only documents and figures I'd trust.

That all said, having spent 8 years doing exactly that, I'd put my hands up and say my figures are as fallible and prone to error as any others. Ultimately, searching for "100%" correct figures is a fool's errand! 29,000 men (or so!) is bound to include a few errors. Keeps us off the streets though.

none taken lord Hill………..i did wonder about their

authenticity as to exact corre;ation of figures dead and

wounded for Waterloo………not too mention ligny

hence erring on the side of your figures and possibly

mike robinson…………..

interesting though

best regards

Ged

gjm.figurines.co.uk/

THX guys,

this turned into one really interesting topic.

Lord Hill… may I contact you when I have such questions in the future? If yes please shoot me an eMail @ burkhard(dot)schulze(at)dhc(minus) wargames(dot)de

THX,

Burkhard

i can't wait for all these facts to be public on TMP..??

I am trying to reconstruct the company organisation of the 3rd bn. 1st Foot Guards at Waterloo, and would really appreciate any help! I specifically try to find out the numbering of companies, as this is not clear from the Waterloo Roll Call, neither has the 2 vol. book by B. Chambers which I bought give any insight at all on this matter. I only could put together the names of the various company commanders (Lieutenant-Colonels and Captains, as per the Foot Guards peculiar double ranking system), but cannot really figure out which was the grenadier coy, or any other numbered one. Thank you!

Hofshrroer says 526 for 42nd, suggesting his sources are that reliable. Pity as that has been my main source!

Sergent lAnglois – I hear your pain, the Guards' company organisation is a nightmare to research, and personally after trying to crack it for years, I don't believe it can be done satisfactorily. The problem lies in the Guards' insisting on using their own system of paroll ledgers/casualty rolls etc – this is compounded by a) them keeping much of their records at their own archive in Birdcage Walk and not handing them over to the Public Record Office at Kew like other regiments and b) a German bomb in WW2 which destroyed many records, especially for the Coldstreams. I can send you what I have if you like, but I do not feel at all confident that what I have is absolutely definitive. email me at stapleton_cotton@yahoo.co.uk

thank you Lord Hill, very kind of you! any info is welcome anyway!