"Who were the good guys?" Topic

I had my nine year old nephew staying with me this past weekend. He was looking at my table with the Warrior Monks facing the Samurai. And that was the first thing he said. My opinion is known from past postings. But as they say"opinions may vary".

The samurai, barely. The warrior monks were early and bitter opponents of Nobunaga, who is the good guy, because his efforts (brought to fruition by Ieyasu) ultimately unified Japan and brought peace.

The monks, obviously. As we are told by New Age Hippies, Buddhism is the only religion which has never started a war. Er… Ahem…(?!?!)

Depends on what side you're on…

Damon.

Neither side.

That depends on how you define 'good'.

the ones that win and get to write the history books

The ones wearing white hats!

Or white hoods in the case of the monks.

I thot that the good guys wear black.

When my kids asked that sticky question, as they watched Dad paint his armies and play his games, I tossed it aside with a glib, "There are no good guys in war, only winners and losers: but if you want to pick a side that is less to blame, try and ID the one that didn't start the war." Of course, that is facile almost always, as both sides help create the problem. In my fav period (middle ages) most wars are waged by warlords/kings who have power to raise armies of men who couldn't care less what the fighting is all about: once it starts most of them either try to stay out of the way or obtain loot or both….

"Tragedy struck today in Sector 9 as rebel terrorists blew up the Death Star killing thousands. The Rebel Alliance, a fringe group of Anti-Empire fanatics, has claimed responsibility for the terrorist act. Fortunately Lord Vader escaped without harm. Our hearts go out to the families of the victims."

My situation is similar to Doug Larson's.

I like the Late Roman to Dark Ages period. Hard to find really 'good' guys in that mess.

the ones that win and get to write the history books

Generally correct.
-Kle.

"Who were the good guys?"

That most American of all questions.

"I thot that the good guys wear black."

Yup:
link

You also must remember that several Samurai Lords like Takeda Shingen were also Monks at one point in their life.

And the Warrior Monks who were early and bitter opponents of Nobunaga,why is that you ask is that Nobunaga burned their temples and such and i would be bitter too if someone had burned my Temples.

This was a reason why several Samurai lords Shingen included who went to war against Nobunaga.

Captain Gideon

Easy. I am the good guys. If you ever find yourself in doubt, just determine which side I am on, and there's your good guys. If I am not actually there, send me a PM and I'll advise as to which side I'd be on if I were there.There is no charge for this service, I do it just because I am such a good guy.

There is one exception to this rule. On the East Front of WWII, there are NO good guys, even if I am in the game. That's the charm of the Eastern Front; everybody gets to play the bad guys.

Do you mean the sohei or the *ikko-Ikki?* There is an important difference between the two factions…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

If you are troubled by the *ikko-ikki*, try holding your breath or drinking a glass of water…

Does morale high ground count as rough going for formed infantry?

Nikator, you beat me to it.

My rule of thumb is that whichever side Mel Gibson's character is on is the bad guys.

Black Widow Pilot: I meant the sohei. If I remember correctly, the Sohei teamed with the Samurai to fight the Ikko Ikki.

Most people on both sides in a war believe they are doing good. That is what makes it tragic; and it does no harm to tell kids that, even though it will be a while before they understand it.

I tell them like it is. Any war in which I or there ancestors fought are the good guys. Problem is there Grandfater was from North Korea!
VR
James Mattes

The good guys look like this:

picture

Oh my eyes!!!!!
GB you got me…..
VR
James Mattes

Actually, it occurs to me as I get older that I would like to associate with the 'good guys' in any armies I choose. History and human nature suggests this is virtually impossible, but I wonder if there are any truly heroic historically verifiable ancient armies. Perhaps anyone resisting an unprovoked invasion? King Alfred's lone resistance to the Danish great army seems pretty heroic to me…or is this just the result of hagiography by Asser his biographer?

Any other ideas for some real life good guys?

"Black Widow Pilot: I meant the sohei. If I remember correctly, the Sohei teamed with the Samurai to fight the Ikko Ikki."

Some did, and IIRC some did not, just as a few samurai also sided with the Ikko Ikki against Nobunaga. It was against the Ikko Ikki that Nobunaga issued his infamous edict of "..yama, yama, tani tani!"

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

What a silly question. Apparently there were a few Good Germans, but I never heard of a Good Jap (unless it's a dead one??) ;)

Lots of strange answers here. It's not like there were ONE group of monks vs. ONE group of samurai in a single conflict. Monks burned each others temples over petty disputes, monasteries put up legitimate protests against despotic samurai lords and they also put up less noble revolts against others. Since a large number on the monastic side were there simply for tax breaks, it's silly to start to think in moral terms except on a case by case study when it comes to the medieval Japanese civil struggles.

"setsuko-san,"

You are correct about the factional nature of the sohei and their monasteries and their motivations during several centuries of Japan's history.

You are also quite correct to remind us that judging the past thorugh modern eyes is the cardinal sin of the historian.

Arigato.

Leland R. Erickson
henley-putnam.edu

Well, everyone I game with currently understands that there really aren't any good guys. One gent I don't game with anymore (an old-timer in his 60s, who really should know better), always insisted on roleplaying a 'good' party. No matter how hard I pushed him (even in the spec-ops campaign), we could never go to the point where spec-ops actually work in. Everything was always done to right some wrong, and that got really frustrating.

But it seems like a simple enough question to ask for a 9-year-old, and is kinda sweet and innocent. (remembering the line from Rurouni Kenshin about 'a sword that brings life'… "What Kauro-san says is sweet and innocent talk that only those whose hands are not stained by the blood of men can believe, but I much prefer the sweet and innocent talk to the truth, that I do")

A good Jap would be one from the 442RCT, CooperSteve. wiki link . They're only the most highly decorated unit in the entire US Army. 21 Medals of Honor, 588 Silver Stars, 5200 Bronze Stars, and almost 10,000 Purple Hearts.

Lion,

IMHO it's good *Americans* that made up the 442nd RCT. I should know, I had the honor and privilege of going to school with some of their children, working with a 442nd RCT veteran, and (ironically) sharing a hospital room with a 442nd RCT vet whose daughters I had gone to school with.

The 442nd RCT was IMHO made up of *Americans,* and they have the medals to prove it.

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

Proud son of a WW2 US Marine

At least in the case of the Ikko-Ikki they were rather a bit like the Taliban of their day. Sohei were a bit better. So I'll go samurai by a nose on this one.

Considering how they were treated by the rest of the country, Leland, I can make a good argument for the 442 being 'Japs'.* When some Texas hicks were refusing to rename 'Jap Road' until someone from the Lost Battalion reminded them that their *fathers* had been saved by a 'bunch of Japs', well, I think I need to just shut up about that now, lest I get DH'd.

* I consider them Americans, too, but some idjits just irritate me to excess.

"Considering how they were treated by the rest of the country, Leland, I can make a good argument for the 442 being 'Japs'.*

Naw, they're *Just Americans* as the content of a book by the same moniker so eloquently proves:

link

"When some Texas hicks were refusing to rename 'Jap Road' until someone from the Lost Battalion reminded them that their *fathers* had been saved by a 'bunch of Japs', well, I think I need to just shut up about that now, lest I get DH'd."

I am familiar with the incident. Idjits is being too kind IMHO.

"* I consider them Americans, too, but some idjits just irritate me to excess."

Wait yer turn in line, Lion.

Leland R. Erickson

Proud son of a WW2 US Marine

"At least in the case of the Ikko-Ikki they were rather a bit like the Taliban of their day. Sohei were a bit better. So I'll go samurai by a nose on this one"

Actually, the Ikko-Ikki were more of an egalitarian movement compared to Oda Nobunaga and his peers (who were generally warlords out to further their own ambitions).

But again, judging the past through modern eyes is the cardinal sin of the historian, so I had better just shut the up and behave myself…

Leland R. Erickson
Metal Express
metal-express.net

"A good Jap would be one from the 442RCT, CooperSteve"

I know, was being humourous.