"1/220 WWII model interest?" Topic

Hi All,

My name is David and I make miniatures. I've been focusing on SciFi, but I'm a little tired of it and want something new. Some buddies and I were looking to get into aerial combat gaming but weren't sure what scale to dive into. A little looking around shows that 1/144 and 1/300 seem to both be reasonably popular (as well as 1/600 for larger games).

My personal preference is for 1/144 because I simply like having larger, more detailed models. That said, I completely understand that that makes it harder to field lots of aircraft. I can't quite pull the trigger on 1/300 because they're just too small for my tastes. So I started thinking about a compromise.

What about Z-Scale (1/220)? An average wingspan of ~2"-2.5" might still be large enough to get some good detail in, while small enough to help keep costs down and allow for lots of them to be fielded.

Assuming interest, actually being able to get them is the real crux. I use computer models to grow a master pattern on a 3D-printing rapid-prototyping machine, and I just happen to have a decent-sized library of aircraft. Without too much difficulty I could get the major players up and ready in reasonably short order, then be reasonably quick about expanding it.

But the question is whether or not there's any interest. Is there?

I'm not interested in another scale between 1/300 and 1/144.

How 'bout well-detailed 1/285 models?! Another compromise scale would just create more incompatibility between groups of players. There are already 3 different scales (1/144, 1/285 & 300, 1/600). Air200 and other small makers also make 1/200 planes. It's hard enough to find opponents in WWII air gaming, and then that those opponents happen to play in the scale that your group does!

That said, maybe if your detail level could match GHQ, C-in-C and Raiden, your talents would be most welcome among us 1/285 players :D

Rolando

Well, I just took a quick look at GHQ's, C-in-C's and Raiden's offerings. Between them, they cover ~75 discreet aircraft, with very little overlap. They pretty much cover all the bread & butter aircraft and while I would certainly like to do some of the less-common aircraft, it's darn hard to make a living off of nothing but that. I don't think there's room for another 6mm vendor.

Z-Scale (1/220)? Im sure that agree along with some here that feel that there really isn't a need for yet another scale. In fact I sold all my 1/285-1/300 scale aircraft minis off awhile ago and am now just gaming in 1/600. The scale and ranges of what is avaialable is growing along with the interest in them. And the prices are very reasonable for the amount of minis you get. You might like to think about producing something for those interested in Luftwaffe 1946 :). There seems to be an interest for that in 1/600. Robert

My 1/600 scale aircraft Yahoo Wargaming Group
link

The new Wings of War WW2 miniatures are 1/200. You might find some trade in matching up with them

It depends on what you want to do. A new scale means you will have to create a market for it and if you are happy doing that then go for it. I'd have thought that there would be more interest in sculpting in an established scale but bring something new to the mix, like insane detail or including decals etc

The trouble is that most rules are for other scales so they would have to b converted to your new scale.

Plus larger aircraft mean compressing the movement even more

I agree with Pajaro Muerto. Z-guage would be a waste of time.

The real question here is do you intend your product to be scale models or wargame caricatures?

If the former then 1:200 might be a good bet as your stuff would tie in with the aircraft modelling collectors who also use that scale.

If the latter then 1:285 is the way to go.

1:200 scale would match the Wings of War WWII planes and also the Aero 200 line coming out through Last Square.

I won't buy that scale, but one of our club members is using it.

I'd like to see more 1/144th for myself.

Sorry' as a dedicated air head I have gamed in most scales but would have to say that the last thing we need is another one. To be honest I think its a shame Wings of War have gone for 1/200th rather than the more established 1/300th (I include 1/285th in this) or 1/144th. I personally prefer 1/300th for WW II and 1/600th for Modern. If you are determined to go into that area I would agree with Historicalgamer that 1/200th, to try and pick up on the WoW market, rather than 1/220th.

Fatman

To be honest, I'm not convinced that model scale will necessarily effect game scale. You either measure from the center of the flight stand, or from the end of the model. Both methods have their pros and cons, but measuring from the flight stand is overall better, IMO. It recognizes that the minis are nothing more than glorified place-holders for a system that deals in unruly distances. And it's completely moot if one is playing on hexes.

Similarly, I only partially understand desire for all models to be in the same scale. Sure, it's more aesthetically pleasing, but the entire point is to play the game.

I have zero desire to do 1/600, so I won't attempt it at this time. Sorry, but I won't pursue a line that I can't get behind because I'm not going to chance putting out crappy models. (If I don't believe in it, then I wont' try as hard)

At this point, I'm more likely to go 1/144 than 1/285. The sheer number of kits already available (and the large number that Raiden currently has in the works) in 1/285 makes it pointless to go that route. Being able to provide decals (and I can) does not make up for all the major aircraft already being done, so duplicating those efforts would not be a good business decision.

"I have zero desire to do 1/600, so I won't attempt it at this time. Sorry, but I won't pursue a line that I can't get behind because I'm not going to chance putting out crappy models. (If I don't believe in it, then I wont' try as hard)"

Sorry to hear that :(.The scale could always be increased and improved LOL. But I understand. I wish you luck in what you are looking to do.Robert

If you're not going to go with 1/285 or 1/600 for that matter then I really think you need to look at 1/200 or 1/144. I simply don't see the point in inventing a new scale and hoping for converts.

I use 1/285 myself but saw the 1/200 WoW planes for the first time today. Very cute, but not cute enough to make me swap scales. Ditto with everything else I wargame – changing scales is a no, no for me no matter how tempted.

If you're worried about Raiden et al I'd say don't be – new models are slow to come out from them and if you can offer the plane plus suitable full squadron decals to match in packs that would suit wargamers you'd possibly be on a winner. I've ended up using all sorts of decals and doing some myself but would have liked to have been able to buy a simple one-stop-shop solution.

I vote for 1/144 too.
You didn't mention what era you were looking at doing (WW1, WW2 or jets)? Or maybe all of them??
Certainly there are plently of some of the planes available in the WW2 area (IE Fw190s, Zeros and Me109s) but some of the other common planes are still missing too. AND some of the available planes aren't that great.
With 1/144 you can appeal to gamers AND to collectors.
See my models at petersplanes.com.
I have just introduced a 'GOLD Series' range that will appeal more to collectors (and will be more expensive) but still have a 'basic' range that is affordable and offers unique subjects.

regards
Peter

Just saw that you joined my Group David :). Welcome!!!! Robert

My 1/600 scale aircraft Yahoo Wargaming Group
link

1/300-1/285 here,I would like to see moderns in a smaller scale though.I was hoping Raiden was going to do some types
for the smaller powers but I think this on hold.MSD appears
to be coming out with some very interesting late war types.
As pointed out there is room for improvement,as half the
lines in this scale are not going to do anything new(Navwar,
Scotia,Skytrex,Skyraider…hope I'm wrong).

David

Thread title said WWII, and it's in the WWII section, so… ;) Still, I could have said it in the post. Sorry. Just so there's no further confusion, I'm interested in WWII, followed by WWI. I'm a little interested in KW, but that's about it. No interest in modern.

I wouldn't consider 1/220 to be "creating a new scale" as it's been around for quite some time. Of course, it hasn't been around for wargaming, which is probably what you meant. If anything, 1/200 is the made up one. No idea why FF went with it. I could almost guarantee that I could release more models than FF as I'm currently sitting on ~60 cgi models for rapid-prototyping. I'm certain that they won't do half that. But doing it in Z-scale is a moot point if there's no interest, and right now it looks like there isn't. And that's okay.

Again, jumping into 1/285 would just be a bad idea. Whether Navwar, et al, release new figures or not is irrelevant. Navwar has just shy of 300 figs. Scotia has 225. I don't need to count the rest to prove to myself that that market is already crowded. Heck, they already have some of the odd ducks that I was planning. There's simply no way I'm going to jump into that. Even if I threw in decals and flight stands I know that none of you are going to ditch your current collections for mine. That's almost what it would take. I have to be able to count on getting a lot of orders for Bf-109s, Fw-190s, Spitfires and P-51s. Have to.

AFAIC tell, 1/144 is severely under-represented and that's more where I was leaning to begin with because I'm more interested in dueling scenarios, rather than mass-battles. A close scale to that would be 1/160 (aka 10mm aka 1/160), which has a ton of WWII ground combat figs.

"Thread title said WWII, and it's in the WWII section, so… ;) "

DOH!!!
60 CGI models! Wouldn't happen to be any flying boats or floatplanes in there would there?
How will they scale up to 1/144 or down to 1/285? wouldn't there be a loss of detail ?

Peter

Sorry, no floatplanes in that that 60. There might be a few in the larger collection, but I don't recall atm.

There would be a few scaling concerns that would have to be dealt with prior to prototyping, but nothing that I haven't done before (I do Star Trek inspired stuff in 1/3788 and 1/2500 and haven't had any issues). It's not too difficult to re-work those areas if needed.

Some commercial advice Justicar:

Are you doing this to make money or just to release a vanity range ?

If the latter (as I suspect), good luck. You must accept that you will never get a return on your investment.

If the former, do not dismiss decals/flight stands/rules.

Provide the whole package to wargamers and you have a chance of making it. Just making a solitary component (the models) only means you are competing with everyone else.

On balance perhaps 1/144 is the way to go then you can pick up sales from land gamers who want ground attack planes as well as air to air combat gamers.

Now if you were to do some nice 1/144 WW1 types, then I'd buy.

Justicar:

I think that a new choice of quality planes is always welcome. If you chose to do 1/285 models, you would have a wide buyer base. Some 1/285 collectors/gamers (like me) are reluctant to buy planes in 1/300 because some do look way smaller in scale. That would take, for you, Navwar and Scotia out of the competition. It would leave you with only Raiden, GHQ and C-in-C to compete with. And the latter American brands are very expensive, so if you make your planes cheap…

For that matter, 1/300 buyers would also sometimes stray into 1/285 and buy a few of yours.

If you pick a niche forgotten by the main 1/285 makers, such as French and Soviet planes, or the Spitfire VIII, IX, XII, XIV, 21 (strangely, all you can find are Spitfire Is and Vs), P-51A, Whirlwind, Me 109D, etc, you might catch a loyal customer fan club :) I have yet to see the Yak-7B or the Yak-3, one of the best dogfighters of WWII, done in either 1/300 OR 1/285. You would have to, of course, make the bread and butter planes that everybody wants always to pay your bills, like Me 109s, P-51Ds, Zeros, Spitfire I and Hurri, P-40C, etc.

As for WWII ground combat figs, you could hardly say that 1/285 is scarce in that area

;)

I agree with PM – my WWII stuff is 1/285 and I'm not shifting scale not even to 1/300 as it doesn't match.

I think many figures gamers would love it if (just for example) X brand 28mm Naps were the same size as brands Y and Z and would buy EXACTLY because they are compatible.

Even taking a popular theatre such as Battle of Britain Raiden don't have Ju87, Ju88, Do 19, Defiant in their range. Let alone Battles, Blenhiems etc etc and BoB is period they DO cover.

Sort out the packs to sell in; (do a deal with Dom to design decals for you or something) but I still think if you could buy say squadron packs of 12 models with full decals ie national and individual plane markings then your are on to something good.

Sorry guys, no can do. PM, in one breath you say that 1/285 and 1/300 are too different, then in the next breath you say that people from one scale would go for the other. A 1/285 Spitfire I is 39.4mm wingspan; 1/300 Spitfire I is 37.4mm wingspan. A 1/285 P-38 is 55.6mm wingspan; 1/300 P-38 is 52.8mm wingspan. Not only is that within the margin of error for mass castings, but one likely couldn't tell the difference in a game situation where different makes & models are all over the place, at different angles, etc.

For the rest… you guys are asking a lot. Tin prices are double what they were 5 years ago (this time a year ago they were triple, but they've come down a bit before creeping up again), yet you want me to beat everyone else's prices while also providing bases, stands and decals. And rules, apparently. Amusingly, I've actually been considering the latter, but the odds of me actually finishing a ruleset are slim. I have one game 98% done and two more at ~90% done and I'm not likely to finish any of them in the near future.

I'd also considered decals, but for individual plane markings? If you mean a sheet with letters and numbers where you can assemble them yourself, that's one thing. But pre-planned individual markings? I would be very, very hesitant to go that route. That's an awful lot of work for a very crowded market.

If you want me to seriously consider 1/285, here's what it's going to take: Pick a plane. Just one. You guys need to agree on it. And decide on a flight stand. And decals. Then guarantee me 500 units sold. Then follow through (and no, I do NOT take pre-payment). There may be a little leeway in the number of units, but that's pretty much the procedure for *every* model. Developing for bulk metal is a lot different than doing it for collectible resin.

Hi Justicar:

To clarify my message: The 5% difference between 1/285 and 1/300 is more obvious because, looked at from the top, both length and width are 5% smaller. Remember it's a square, area measurement. In the 2Ds that a top view is seen as, it's a 90.25% area difference.

The difference is more pronounced in some models than others. For example from models that I have bought, the P-38J from GHQ and Scotia don't look that different, while the Scotia Yak-1B is way smaller than the GHQ Yak-9T (of like wingspans). Scotia LaGG-3s are not that much smaller than C-in-C LaGG-3s, and may even be mixed in a game without being confused for different models of aircraft, while Museum Miniatures (nominally 1/300, but I'd say more 1/285) Ki.27 Oscars are much bigger than Navwar's 1/300 model.

About the decals/rules/minis combo, just do what you wanna do. I think, like some others in this thread, that indeed it may be more marketable. Maybe. But just the miniatures would be fine too. That depends, I guess, on if you want to dive headfirst into selling metal minis, or if you want to do this more for fun and for the art of it, and wouldn't mind to only break even money-wise without making a big profit. Especially if you choose more obscure planes, which would make your market the hardcore plane freaks ;)

As for my plane picks, to be the first, here they are:

La-5FN
La-7
Yak-3

NOOOO! justicar. Don't start off just filling the gaps in other peoples ranges.

Start with 'bread and butter' items. The reason everyone makes Bf109Es and Spitfire Is is that they SELL. Later, when your turnover justifies it, you can make me a Vickers Wellesley. I Guarantee you a sale of 3 units!

OK then, P51-D 78th Fighter Group 1945. I'll have 12. Stand I'm not worried but add a magnet if you like.

I think we have our answer.

Exactly – good luck with whatever you decide to make/market!

In case it wasn't clear, the answer is "Nothing." I don't want to make 1/285 because the market is overly crowded, but was willing to go for it with community help. When presented with the choice of what mini you guys wanted, I got just three responses in a week, all of which were different. As far as I'm concerned, this proves that there is ZERO room for another 1/285 vendor, no desire for 1/220, none for 1/160 and next to none for 1/144. It's been fun talking about it, but it's time to move on.

Justicar,

Have seen you around SCN – there is a definite market for 1/200 WWII planes.

Art

HI
I am new here and found this thread while Googling.
I think there is a small market, in people who do Z scale trains. Z scale was started by Maerklin in Gemany in the 70s, and has actually grown a bit lately with several companies in the US (Microtrains,AZL,Pennzee) and others.
There is a company in England that is called Z-Panzer, and though the selection for now is small, the the models are spectacular, a complete armored train, in Z scale!
I build Z scale model railroads, both German and American, and would love to see some 1/220 scale aircraft, both civil and military. I know there are a few others that would like to see the same.

David, I would go to the forum Z Cental Station, and ask there if anyone would be interested. I myself would love ANY kind of aircraft in true 1/220 scale. Of course a P-51 would be a top choice. I know liason aircraft is not the sexiest thing, but I am sure a Piper cub, would sell like hotcakes with those folks.
Microtrains has some military barracks that are WW2 styled in 1/220 scale. They might be somthing the WW2 Aircraft folks could use.
I always poke around in the doll/ship/car/airplane/toy sections and see what the others are up to, as you never know what pops up that can be used for my hobby.