"Desert Rats 22nd Armoured Brigade Regimental numbers?" Topic

I'm trying to find some information on which number was assigned to which Regiment in the Desert Rats.

I know there were roughly 5 Armoured Regiments assigned to the 22nd during 1942-1943, but the FoW books only show 3 sets of numbers for Armoured Regiments, plus one for the Brigade HQ and one for the Motor Battalion.

What can the TMP Brain Trust tell me?

Notes are on my other PC – will have a rummage tomorrow, but you need to narrow it down probably – 7th got through a lot of different sets of serial numbers, changing on whim as well as when regiments rotated in and out….

Seems like throughout that period (at least Oct 42 – Sep 43), 22 Armd Bde was consistently:

1RTR

5RTR

4CLY

link

It was the rest of the division that went through gyrations.

Allen

4CLY…Please, what Regiment was that…

See the link! 4th County of London Yeomanry.

At Gazala in June '42 they were composed of:
22nd Armored Brigade: Brigadier W. Carr

2nd R.G.H. Tank Regiment: Lt. Col. Birley

3rd C.L.Y. Tank Regiment:Lt. Col. Grafftey-Smith

4th C.L.Y. Tank Regiment:Lt. Col. F. Arkwright

2/31st Motor Battalion

According to Joslen –

5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards – 29/07/44 to 31/08/45
1st Royal Tank Regiment – 17/09/42 to 31/08/45
5th Royal Tank Regiment – 17/09/42 to 31/08/45
2nd Royal Gloucestershire Hussars – 03/09/39 to 16/09/42
3rd County of London Yeomanry – 03/09/39 to 16/09/42
4th County of London Yeomanry – 03/09/39 to 29/07/44

1st Battalion, the Rifle Brigade provided the Motor Battalion from July 1942 through to August 1945. There were also various RA Regiments with the Brigade in the Middle East following the switch to Brigade Groups, though possibly earlier than the time you're looking at.

Gary

Found 'em….

Nov 41 – Jan 42, white numbers on red background.
71 HQ, 40 2nd Ryl Glos Huss, 86 3rd CLY, 67 4th CLY. Stag unit badge.

Jan – Feb 42, white on green, 49, 65, 68, 83, units as above. (Switch of serials as for this brief period 22nd was the junior armoured brigade in 7th armoured, rather than an independent or senior brigade.) Desert rat unit badge.

Feb 42 – Sept 42, back to Nov 41 serials. Stag unit badge to July, desert rat from July '42, as it took over from 4th AB as 7th Armoured Div's armoured brigade.

Sept 42 – Sept 43, same serials (71, 40, 86, 67 in white on red square) but regiments changed – 40 now 1st RTR, 86 5th RTR, and 4th CLY still 67. Combined badges appearing by now, so stag badge above the unit serial, and desert rat divisional badge in the usual spot.

Sept 43 standardised serials introduced, so HQ 50, 1st RTR 51, 5th RTR 52, 4th CLY 53. Combined badges still used, so both brigade and divisional badges on tanks.

Dom.

(Foolishly neglected to note where I got these from, but am pretty sure they're Barry Beldam (armoured acorn), as I don't have serials for the rifles noted, and his stuff tends only to bother with tank units….)

Great, thanks, Dom!

On a somewhat related note, was it typical for a 'jock column' to have mixed companies?

Did 3rd CLY use Crusaders?

I'd really like to get my Desert Rats right, since those decals add so much to the model. Since I've got a Grant platoon painted up in the RGH camo with the red 40 number plate, I guess that puts my force between July and September 1942.

22nd Armoured brigade comprised 2 RGH, 3 CLY and 4 CLY for Operation Crusader in November 41, and all 3 regiments were equipped with crusader mkI and II just arrived from UK.
They appear to have had 2 squadrons of Grants and one of Crusaders at Gazala.
Egg

3rd CLY war diary's here:
link
13th July 1942, strength return was 7 Grants (all B squadron) and 25 Crusaders, for instance. At the end of July B squadron "refitted with cruisers" which presumably means more Crusaders, taking the Grants temporarily off of the strength. By mid-August Grants seem to have been back, with 2 Grant squadrons (including B) and one "light" squadron of Crusaders.

No idea on Jock columns.

Dom.

Here is a site you might find useful:

link
Egg

Oh, and as a random note on how close units were to maintaining "paper" strengths on operations, you can't beat the 14th June entry: "Major GGL Willis, DSO, was ordered to assume command of a composite Squadron to be formed from the remaining tanks of the Brigade…." (Which amounted to squadron HQ and 4 troops of 3 Crusaders….)

Great, thanks so much guys!

Looks like I can put decals on the 12 Crusaders now. Wait, just checked availability. Crusader 3s didn't show until 2nd El Alamein, just after my timeframe for the RGH Grants… *cuss!*

Here is the link to Barry Beldam's site that Dom was referring to link
Lot's of nice colour images of unit serials and the type of tank the unit was equipped with at a particular time.

This link is to a site that gives the various unit strengths at brigade level during the time in question. link

Hope this helps.

Wow, that armored acorn site is outstanding. Thanks for the link, Woobie!

Only problem is that I need to buy 6 more Crusader 2s now, since Crusader 3s weren't deployed until after the 2RGH left the 22nd Armoured.