"Spear that pierced Christ" Topic

Hi KT,

I was away for a few days, coincidentally playing my Heraclian Byzantines, to get them ready for Historicon.

a)Our legal institutions do come from Rome, which by the way is what Byzantium was (Roman Empire was it's title). It was the vehicle through which many of those roman institutions were passed down to modern Greece.

You are making my argument for me. We can't thank Heraclius for that.

On Language: Heraclius was actually the Emperor that made Greek the official state language in the empire……

Are you seriously suggesting because Heraclius started calling himself Basileus instead of Augustus, he somehow saved the Greek language? Come now. The fact that Greeks still speak Greek has nothing to do with Heraclius defeating the Sassanids. You cannot lay this in his lap.

On orthodoxy………………

You are making my argument for me again. Heraclius defeating the Sassanids did not save orthodoxy. You cannot lay this in his lap either.

In fact, the variance of Christianity that Heraclius championed, Monothelitism was later condemned as heretical.

Germany and England are not successor states of Rome. Germany was never part of the Empire and usurped the imperial title with Papal conspiracy. Roman institutions were brought in a lot later(18th century).

I think you are confusing the Roman provinces of Germania with the later Holy Roman Empire. Lessor Germania (modern Germany west of the Rhine) was within the Roman Empire since Caesar's time, and it took Augustus to eventually capture large portions of Magna Germania (Germany east of the Rhine up to the River Elbe). The eventual "Romanification" of the German tribes (including the conversions to Christianity) outlasted the fall of Rome itself.
My point was that Germany is no more a successor state of Rome than Greece is a successor state of Byzantium. Perhaps you could convince me otherwise.

Lets get back to the original posting. The first written record of Heraclius recovering the "True Cross" comes from the 13th century Legenda Sanctorum by de Voragine. This contains other fanciful stories such as St. George killing the Dragon, or the relic remains of St. Agatha stopping the eruption of Mt. Etna.

Without stepping on anyones religious toes, from a purely historical standpoint the veracity of these stories are in question. Asserting that the language, culture, jurisprudence and governance of supposed "successor states" of Byzantium all depended on the supposed recovering of a relic, described in a fanciful hagiography more than 600 years after the fact, is quite a stretch for some.

Anyway this is not a good conversation. I would like to apologize for the remark, especially to Iranians .

I beg to differ. In what way did you malign the Iranians?

Ralph

He made Greek the official language of the state not just called himself Basileus. Which had a big impact on the culture of the empire.

the variance of Christianity that Heraclius championed : For political reasons, as part of his strategy to try and keep the empire together.

More modern Greeks and Turks have descend from the peoples of the Eastern Roman Empire then Germans have from the western Roman Empire. My own surname shows up at least twice in Byzantine sources and I know people whose surname is Metaxas (a family that can trace it's name back to 1000AD and Eastern Rome), Palaiologoi, Comnene, Angelloi e.t.c. and who can track their family histories at least back to the 12th century.

Modern Greek culture is heavily influenced by Byzantine elements (more than Russia or the other Slavic nations) and we also claim that successor status without anybody (except the Russians and Turkey) contesting it.

You know what, I can't make the case as well as others, go ahead and find an english translation (if it exists) of Tomes 7 and 8 of the History of the Greek Nation(Historia tou Hellenikou Ethnous) (ISBN 960-213-095-4, Ekdotiki Athinon, 1980)

It is a pity that no Greek publication house has tried to transalte Paparigopoulos to English, although it makes sense (the series is 8 volumes, each 490-500 pages, so costly). It is the single most important series in arguing for why Modern Greece is one of the spiritual successors of the Eastern Roman Empire.

If you are asking me to summarize the argument here, I apologize but I can't do that, as it would take pages.

And ultimately the argument is less Heraclius did so and so. He was one of many emperors, but he did make Greek the official language. The argument is that Greece (And Turkey to an extent) are successor states of Eastern Rome, for cultural, national, and hisotrical reasons.

Again Paparigopoulos makes the argument better then I do, so if you can find it in English look at it.

As for Iran-> Well I did harp on the Islamic Republic situation which could be an insult. So I do apologize.

Kt,

I know Heraclius did more than just call himself Basileus. (It was a feeble attempt at sarcasm). The Greek culture and language would have survived and thrived and prospered well without Heraclius wrenching the "True Cross" from the Sassanids. As I have stated before, you don't have to lay that on his lap. Heraclius was an excellent Emperor with very impressive deeds, even without being the sole savior of Greek culture. (That was sarcasm too).

I don't think you have anything to apologize for concerning the sad state modern Iranians find themselves in. Who knows, maybe the current crisis may lead to democratic reforms and wrest power from the "supreme leaders".

Ralph

I do apologize but I suck at sarcasm, big time :)