"Passion for ROLE-PLAYING vs 'WARGAMING'" Topic

No disrespect intened toward 'wargaming purists', but I originally got into 'role-playing' back in the early days of D&D and yes, while there was dice rolls, stats, charts and manuals with information….it was STILL more about the 'STORY', than statistics and turn sequences and number crunching….

What do I mean?

Well…let me try to explain as best as I can…

I guess an extreme example would be 'Star Fleet Battles'…where I spent time working on my little Constitution class starship, from assembly to paint-job and even NCC registration…had 'crewed it' and then lovingly made out the SSD for it…(using the boxed rules) and went to my first 'group' game…(which no-one told me was a KILL AND KEEP? and they knew I was a 'newbee')…

I ran my mission into unknown sector…(visions of Kirk-like person or maybe Pike or even Captain April!!!) and Boldly going….WHAM…I get jumped by a couple klingons and two other races (who were 'fighting' between themselves)…and I happened to get 'in the way?'

Thinking 'logically', I tried to 'protect' myself and communicate and realized I was outgunned/out-manned and decided to exercise the better part of valor…(even Kirk executed a strategic 'advance to the Rear!/withdrawal/RUN AWAY…' and it didn't matter. My opponents blew my ship outta the skies almost instantly!

and while I was sitting there numb…they reached for my SSD and my MINIATURE…with a 'snickering' of 'You're DEAD, FED!'….

The SSD they DID get…(so I couldn't 'reuse'/for their 'trophy book?'), but my grabbing of the little 'pinkie' and TWISTING it, of the smart-BUM, zit-faced geekatoid as he was GREEDILY reaching for MY starship….STOPPED him long enough for them to 'agree' that I should have KNOWN that is was a 'kill and keep' game…(no, I was not told beforehand, but that's another whole story!!!!)

I was told if I didn't surrender both SSD and ship, I'd never be allowed to play in THAT group or that gaming center again! (What the SLISH?) And this was not something I'd honestly been told ANYTHING about???

yep, I was a 'newbee' for THIS sort of 'wargaming'…and the 'attitudes' of those that gamed there…(it was at the U of U in one of their buildings/Naval reserve or something???)

I still have my ship, and several dozen others…but I NEVER played SFB again…or in THAT facility.

I watched other 'wargames'…there and elsewhere and between tape measures, dueling dice throws and calculators/paper notepads with numbers and all sorts of charts and modifier stuff…I just walked away.
*******************

Contrast that to another time and another place…where in a Call of Cthullu game…my character…who was 'inspired' by David Carradine's KUNG FU 'wandering monk' was in 1920's Southwestern USA…and we ran into something out of Native American/possibly OLDER…'mythos'…

There were long, cold, eerie nights around the campfire…My character usually 'cooked' as that was his 'official' job, (like 'Hop Sing' on Bonanza?) on the 'expedition' by a MU group 'investigating' some 'happenings.'

Yep, he used Martial Arts against some human and NON-human opponents and there were even 'flash-backs' like the TV show!!! It was a bit like Indy Jones, a western and twilight zone all at the same time.

Yes, we used some stats and charts and dice…and CHARACTER sheets. But they were filled out and we even got images/art and personalized our MINIATURES. We used some maps and some drawings and 1:1 scale layout sheets for caves or buildings…and the like.

But it was about the INTERACTION…between the 'characters' and you had to make it clear when you were speaking as a 'player' vs a 'character' and 'player knowledge' vs 'character knowledge'…and the GM would 'equalize' if you CROSSED that line!!

And he was very, VERY good at that!!! Bwah-hah-ha!!

but that made it a 'story'…an ADVENTURE and the campaign went on for SEVERAL months…and other adventures followed.

Some of us 'lost' characters….(and usually 'mourned' them!)…and generated others…and had to 'work our way' back into the 'groove'..(like breaking in new shoes!).

But it was about the STORY…the characters and a rich tapestry of both visual images, imagination and 'group storytelling'…where each of us 'contributed' to the total picture…

It was fun…it was challenging….it was exhausting and draining and one of the best experiences in my life concerning 'wargaming/role-playing' etc.

I MISS that…and in the years since…I've run a few 'campaigns' myself…where I've tried, in my own humble way…to capture the 'flavor', the spirit of that first really 'RPG' type experience.

The 'Theater of the Mind'…can be such a powerful, wonderful, scaring the bejeebers outta ya', heart-breaking and glorious experience!

I'd spend hours, days, weeks modifying, painting, super-detailing character figures….(in fact, it's one of the things that got me into trying to create my own line of miniatures eventually!!!)..and props and maps and detailed character sheets with portraits or even photos of the 'characters'.

I guess to me…it was like LIVING 'Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World'…vs pushing little lead chunks or cardboard 'markers' on blue hex sheets and measuring, checking off scorecards etc…

That doesn't mean it's not 'fun'…I've seen several games like that, were it was very interesting to watch some 'pros' go at it like a 'cat-fight' on DYNASTY…(Alexis and Krystall!!!)

But…the STORY…the development of the characters…as individuals and team with all the complex interpersonal relationships…(sorta like in REAL life?)…

Only we could really be 'Captain Aubry' or 'Kwai Chang Caine' or 'Indy Jones' or 'Captain Horatio Hornblower'…

THAT is what I so desperately MISS and long for…and to be able to run a campaign that makes folks 'think'/talk/share as 'characters' and players…or to play in a campaign where you have to 'invest' yourself…(not just MONEY, like in MAGIC or Yu-gi-oh, etc)…

Ya wanna know WHY I 'joke' so much about the TMP Lounge or go into 'imaginary detail' about my 'Bartentacle' avatar, his attire, attitudes, his 'perspective' on the Lounge or the TIKI-BAR annex in the BASEMENT???

because I SEE it in my mind…I've 'sketched out' ideas for what is where…created one of a kind minis of some of the denizens…(like the THING in the Basement) or the (hopefully), soon to be produced 'Official Bartentacle' metal figure…(and maybe Dr. SherlOCTOPUS and Ms. Whatsit for Pulp/VSF/Horror???)

It's about the STORY…the characters…not the FX or technology or type of dice….

Heck, I remember some of the best games revolved around maps drawn with pencil on blank paper…as we went…no figures…few dice…minimal charts and a couple of books…but lots of 'verbal descriptions' and 'I've got a bad feeling about this' sorta comments…as we went 'dungeon crawling'…

and a whole lotta FUN….and memories I'll cherish forever….(not to mention some nifty ideas and plot devices I'll 'borrow' as I need!!! 8-)

And it's been several YEARS since I've gotten to do something like that…with a regular group.

Forget the Wii and WOW 'on-line' and 'clixies'….give me a couple of comfy chairs, some munchies a few dice and blank sheets of paper…a couple of rule books and a group of folks who aren't afraid of using (or losing?) that 'grey matter' between their ears!!

I've got adventures for many genres…but when I think about the Call of Cthullu adventure series I started working on OVER 20 years ago and 'fine-tuned' since then…I cry with frustration and loss…

Like toys….and comics kept forever sealed pristine in their packages…what GOOD is a campaign, however well developed..if nobody ever 'plays' it…or with it?

I've tried…several times to get a group together in the area I'm in…or get into a group if there was one. No luck…and in the meantime, miniatures, 'props', maps and documention for games has collected and been stored and is gathering dust.

I'm becoming more and more…'less able' to go out as much or travel very far…(and most conventions are too far away…or 'HOSTED' by places not really 'accessible' if you know what I mean)

So…I guess I'm going to have to 'do' something about it…

I once joked..(sort of) about a 'fire sale' where I'd sell most of what I no longer wanted or was able to use/had anybody who was interested in using/sharing etc…OR I'd simply 'burn it'…rather than let it rot where it's at.

(the viking funeral for my cremation would be too expensive!!!)

Well, a 'friend' gave me a card for an auctioneer service that handles estate sales and large batches of stuff like what I have…and I've started sorting it out, myself and I guess…in the next year or so…I'll be giving them a call.

Somebody…somewhere else should be able to enjoy the stuff and Lady Merrit can 'build up her nest egg' (or beading supplies?)…and I won't cry as much watching all my dreams rot, mildew, turn yellow with age or just sit in the dark, alone and unloved….

(that's also one of the reasons Black Cat Bases is, for the most part…taking over most of the older/un-released/ltd release Doppleganger USA lines…because I didn't want to see the figures become 'extinct')

I can't keep watching my dreams 'die'…and I won't be moving to another area JUST to find a 'regular' gaming group…it's simply not practical, affordable or healthy for me.

'it's like a flower…dying in the desert…'

So TMP "lounge" is my 'virtual world'…for now..but like all good things…I know, sooner or later…that too will come to it's conclusion. Time, technology and tastes in 'entertainment'…(like Frog-nog-grog recipees), waits for no man or bartentacle!

But oh, what a lovely ride, what a lovely adventure it was…and for that 'brief shining time'…it WAS my own 'Camelot'….and I shall not see it's like again!

Slishfully and longingly,
Sgt DWW-bartentacle on duty…for now

My liege, and madam, to expostulate
What majesty should be, what duty is,
What day is day, night night, and time is time,
Were nothing but to waste night, day, and time;
Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,
And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief. . .

:)

hey poly, is that a brief way of telling me to 'stifle myself'??? 8-)

*sigh

Not at all, Dances. I'd be very interested in your ideas, if only you could get them across in a more readable form.

As it was, I gave up about a third of the way down. It might be a very stylish experiment in creative writing, but it is hard going, and not a very efficient way of communicating your thoughts to others.

But I know it's your thing and always has been, and you aren't going to change now. But it's a shame because your long-winded style and eccentric approach to writing is so off-putting that it becomes a barrier between yourself and the people who might be interested in what you have to say.

By the way, those Star Fleet nob-ends sound like a right bunch of Tommy-tankers, and you are far better off without them. I'm with you on that one.

Can we get a synopsis done?

Hello DWW…

Nice to read your stuff, as always. I think of myself as a wargamer, and that was how I started out, like most of us over a certain age – because roleplaying didn't yet exist. But when it did, our group roleplayed (original, white box, D&D) as well as wargaming. It seemed a perfectly natural development of the hobby to us.

Over the years, I've done plenty of both. Currently, and for a long time, though I think of myself as a wargamer, I actually do far more roleplaying than 'real' wargaming. Our present game is the the second edition of WFRP. Our campaigns (we're on our second), have run the gamut from intensely political, to 'pure' dungeon-bash, with all sorts in between. But the over-riding 'thing' has always been a degree of 'creepiness' – the gnawing cancer of chaos potentially lurks behind every locked door, behind every curtain, under every voluminous robe. Couple that with the depredations of the skaven/rat people (they don't exist, you know!) and an empire riddled with corruption of o0ne sort or another, at all sorts of levels, and you get huge fun. It's about the story, and really, really, bad puns! We do use miniatures, sometimes, but a lot/most of the time it happens in our heads, with just our character sheets and some scribbled maps for company.

All of which is a rather slishful-like aside…

Getting me almost completely off the point…

Which is…

Have you thought about PBEM (or Play-By-Yahoo-Group)? I've played a couple of PBEM games. They aren't the *same* as proper sit-around-a-table-with-some-munchies RPGs – the interaction is quite different (obviously!), but they do offer some advantages, once you get used to the different way of playing. They can be frustratingly slow unless all the players are 'on board' and prepared to 'get on with the job'. But if you get a decent group 'e-together', it can be very rewarding.

Oh yes, and I guess it goes without saying that if you do decide to PBEM/PBYG, I'd love to join in…

Phil

(nods) I've been in two very satisfying RPGs done via a MUD. The only reason I dropped out was time zone conflicts.

What was nice was being able to do chunks of prose for stunts on notepad and then copy and paste them in, was in a lot of ways a lot easier than face to face for that aspect.

You lose the visual and tactile side (although there are game engines that give a virtual tabletop but we didn't wind up using them) but if you can type fast enough, the prose side of it was excellent.

I'd highly recommend it. :)

In essence I command armies of thousands of little 6mm toys, they just don't last long enough for me to bond with :)

I'm the polar opposite to you, Dances! I started out role-playing, but the only bit I liked was the combat; as soon as I discovered wargaming I never looked back.

That said, one of my kids has just bought the Star Wars RPG and is insisting that I GM for him. Oh well, it just better have a good set of combat rules, that's all…

hey DWW… you could have written that almost entirely for me. Were we separated at birth?

Have you thought about PBEM (or Play-By-Yahoo-Group)? I've played a couple of PBEM games. They aren't the *same* as proper sit-around-a-table-with-some-munchies RPGs – the interaction is quite different (obviously!), but they do offer some advantages, once you get used to the different way of playing. They can be frustratingly slow unless all the players are 'on board' and prepared to 'get on with the job'. But if you get a decent group 'e-together', it can be very rewarding.

Oh yes, and I guess it goes without saying that if you do decide to PBEM/PBYG, I'd love to join in…

And that was almost exactly what i was going to suggest.

Great minds…? or fool's seldom…?

As to PB(e)M i prefer doing it in a turn by turn method rather than a free flowing everyone chatting on the web at once.

What started me on miniature gaming was crawling around the floor with Fort Apache and using Chainmail rules to hunt the tax collector with Robin hood. When roleplaying games were discovered, my friends and I threw ourselves into that to get our storytelling.

I had become jaded and dissatisfied by roleplaying over the recent years and was similarly unsatisfied by most miniature games. Games were too often about numbers and dice and tape measures.

Recently though I had a Eureka moment.

With the right game, I see more storytelling, sportsmanship, teamwork, and roleplaying around a miniatures table than I get around a roleplaying game table. Roleplaying had evolved into tactical wargames where every problem was solved by tactical choices.

So now I get my roleplaying fix entirely on the felt tabletop. I run skirmish games, with players who have never played roleplaying games, and get them evolving into their characters, making roleplaying decisions, taking on accents, laughing, (and this is important) not caring much at all about winning and losing. Every tactical decision is framed by story and character and imagination.

I'm a wargamer, not a role player. When I did do role playing (D&D) back in the day, I always thought of it as basically a skirmish wargame, and that the role playing part was a "scenario generator" for the next fight. When I GM'd games, I figured a balanced scenario would be if half the party got killed off. I spent most of my time trying to expand the D&D combat system into something more "realistic" (ie – complicated). Eventually I decided why waste time with the role playing part when I could be spending many happy hours fighting a battle?

Neotacha and I are primarily wargamers. Although I have sneakily maneuvered our group into a couple of games of warhammer as part of a war the PCs are involved in.

I could never let go of myself long enough to get into role playing. As a kid, I role played cowboys and indians, army, etc outside but not on the tabletop. When I tried to role play on the table top as an adult I just felt silly.

I wanted to command large armies and outflank and destroy the enemy and that is what I attempted to derrive from wargaming. It never worked that way.

Now I just set up my ACW on my soldier table and try for a battle scene that looks good to me.

I much prefer roleplaying to miniature gaming myself (although I do enjoy collecting miniatures and I do vow to do something with them one day!). And when I roleplay, I do just that. I don't really get the min-maxing your character to ensure that you have the best possible outcome from all the options available. I'd rather pick a character and develop him and pick skills etc that suit.

My current character is a Dark Heresy (WH40K) one who sucks at combat and has a rubbish willpower, which doesn't help when you're playing Cthulhu in Space, as our GM calls it. Still, it's great fun and the stats suit the character I want to play. It helps that the fellows I game with are great too. Unfortunately, I'm on the opposite side of the pond, so not much use really.

I try to "live the story" and the replay in my head is more like a movie than a series of stills shot from above regardless of the game.

I think that ANY group the plays "Kill and Keep" should be avoided, I expect most of them played with unpainted figures too.

I'd also hang onto the games you enjoyed, you still may find or grow a group to play.

I guess that most wargamers are control freaks.

They react to things that the opposition do even though their commander cannot see it

I would kill the average wargamer to give up the godlike view of the table or to act like an below average commander – they only want to be the great commanders!

Even pulp games that have some narrative element have heros that have extraordinary powers of survival.

Great minds…? or fool's seldom…?

Most probably the latter.

As to PB(e)M i prefer doing it in a turn by turn method rather than a free flowing everyone chatting on the web at once.

I'm with you there – otherwise it becomes a race as to who can be on-line most, or type quickest.

I would qualify the 'turn-by-turn' thing though, to say that you have to get your turn in by hour X on day Y (or forfeit your turn, or have the GM take it for you), or else everyone ends up waiting for the slowest player to submit their next action – that can kill a game really quickly.

I suppose, now I think about it 'in the cold light of day', that even though I think of myself as a wargamer, I probably have more of a roleplayer 'mindset' – I can't abide 'competitive' wargaming – much preferring games which have a strong 'scenario', or story behind them, and are played in a fairly 'narrative' sort of way (don't care who wins so long as it's a 'fun simulation' in some way). Maybe that's why I find TooFatLardies games appealing – that and the bad jokes in the rules.

Hey Slishy,

Like some others, my gaming career has been pretty much the opposite of yours. I started in role playing but the interaction of the group and difficulty getting everyone together consistently was frustrating. After discovering minis I found that I enjoyed the visual aspect of miniature wargaming a lot. I have never really looked back!

And if someone were to reach for one of my minis on the grounds of 'kill or keep'… well, let's just say their hand would never be the same.

Jeremy

I love both. I love the roleplaying and often add aspects of roleplaying to my wargames. OTOH, when I roleplay, I can't help but think of tactics when we have encounters. And then there times when I just want to play a hard core wargame or just want a satisfying roleplaying session without combat.

As to the bartentacle's posts. I often read the 1st paragraph and then move to the end read the rest of the post sorta backwards – paragraph by paragraph. Honestly it works.

DWW,

I have nothing but contempt for your first game group. I can't actually tell you what I think of them without being DH'd.

As for your RPing and gaming experience, I've had some similar fun. We used to play Deadlands. I started with a Gunman turned preacher and only shot when it was absolutly necessary. I played him off and on. My second character was a man named "Mr Chang". He was a Chinese immigrant. People could not pronounce his real name so he chose something that was true to his origin and and was easy to say. He carried no gun but had a big stick. very fun and challenging to play.

malcolmmccallum

I used to do the same sort of thing with the Chainmail rules. Robin hood figures on my parents living room floor!
Great fun!

John

btw, simple cynical definition of roleplaying: choosing to make mistakes.

See, you can't roleplay someone smarter than yourself and in a game or other contest, you will always do what you think is the best move. Whenever you choose to do something that isn't the smartest move, for whatever reason, you are roleplaying. This then also includes people who are trying to 'see what happens if' and the ones who are trying to 'make the battle interesting'.

Best of health to you and good luck with your intended hobby metamorphosis. Despite hoarding miniatures as if I were Smaug the wargamer, I do agree with one thing you touched on. As long as you have your mind and social interaction, what else does one need?

I think Michael meant we're primarily role-players.

I'm relatively new to both RPG and wargames (well, 5 years now), but I've noticed a trend towards skirmish games that seem to skip along at a level right between RPG and traditional wargames. The Two Hour Wargames rules are a prime example. Their Six Gun Sound rules are very much "character and campaign" oriented, but there's plenty of detail in the combat system for those who don't think characters should be able to talk their way out of trouble.

It also seems that solo gaming may be the most practical way of getting a recurring campaign game, unless you're lucky enough to have a very active and diverse community nearby. I've been liberally plundering RPG rules for ideas for my solo THW skirmish games.

- Bob

Hi Sgt DWW, as bobstro said skirmish games like Two Hour Wargame's "Chain Reaction" system (of which Nuts! WW2 and Larger than Life pulp action are my favorites) bring an element of roleplaying to them. Funny how my path to wargaming took a similar one. My dad created a wargame when I was a kid, so I got interested in gaming in general, and then discovered D&D when it was just that box with three little book in it (yes, I do date myself!). Some years later I was introduced to Call of Cthulhu, and it's remained my favorite genre by far. I was a roleplayer for many years before getting into wargaming, and don't have the time to play RPG campaigns today -- but using Nuts! and Larger than Life I can do RPG-like games with leading characters that develop a personality over the life of linked scenarios.

Btw, a great trick to use if you don't have time to do RPG campaigns is to serialize your games. Make each RPG session like a serial short, playing it with the intent that one game will be a complete end-to-end adventure that concludes by end of your game session. You can link these together to provide continuity and form campaigns. This works especially well for CoC given the period setting.

I got into FRP gaming almost as it was invented. I had hardly begun to paint my first Normans, when the GM started to put on fantasy games for us -- his own cobbled together rules, not that D&D carp (this was in the day of the first boxed D&D set): and they rocked! Since then I have put on my own games and campaigns, set in my own fantasy (futuristic) world. In fact my fantasy campaign/RPG was the most long-lasting and successful of any games I ever hosted. But I grew tired of it all: and I have never recovered my once-interest: all I want now is to play historicals: I am a disappointment as a father too (the two go together, as none of my kids are interested in historical gaming)….

1066.us

I'm a gamer. Role play, board, miniatures. I love the interaction and the fun of the game. What I really enjoy about wargaming is the prep before the game, the painting terrain and such. With RPG my wargamer comes out with the terrain and figures, with wargaming my RPG comes out with interactions with figures and players.

DWW,

You've got a gift for storytelling, and you've spent a lot of time slishing your way through your ideas, so if it's at all feasible please, please, please start a PBEM.

I haven't played a RPG in over 20 years, and I know virtually nothing about Cthulu or Star Trek, but if you can do the PBEM thing, I'm in (if you'll let me) regardless of the genre.

I'm somewhere in the middle.

I like my leaders to have a bit of character but I'm not a freakin; drama major. If I wanted to act I'd have gone into amateur theatrics.

I primarily want to play a battle/tactical situation. But I realise individual personalities do affect that so I like it if my commanders are a ll a bit different.

Oh, and those SFB knob-heads needed a punch in the face.

I don't care much for SFB anyway, too much detail for playing anything more than one or two ships. And the rule system does seem to encourage min-maxing, rules lawyering.

-I'm amazed and awed and somewhat humbled the number of responses to my plaintive cry in the wilderness…

-I think Phil should be my 'ghost writer' for my posts…they'll mean more, saying less and more folks will read with less stifles or sleep injuries…

-I haven't a clue how to do a PBEM?…(PB&J I can manage), but since most of my Call of Cthullu (and other campaigns) are scanned into my computer…I could send images of maps, character sheets and the like out to others.

I just don't know about time-zones and the first thing about doing it.

-as to my 'rambling style' of writing…it's become more pronounced as time passes. Something to do with my brain working faster than I can type..(and I have a very FAST keyboard speed/always have/have always 'composed' on keyboard)..

Having said that, I will take the comments as intended, that I sometimes have something 'interesting' to say…but should be more 'concise' (if not briefer), and 'wander' not as much. I will certainly try, because of the consideration and friendly manner the advise/suggestions were offered.

I DO so miss the 'story telling' aspect of gaming though, very much. I'm not against a quick 'dungeon crawl' like Heroquest or other 'board'/felt table-top games, but that first SFB game really BURNT me out. 'Kill and keep' went out with 'marbles' or jacks I thought, (or pogs?).

If anyone IS interested in setting up a PBEM or whatever on a C of C game…(whether you've played in awhile or not), feel free to email me or pm me and we can chat about it?

It's worth a 'shot'…and if it works and if you 'survive' the adventures/campaign…you'll have a 'copy' of everything to someday 'tweak' and maybe re-use/re-write for your own fiendish adventures!?

-And yes, keep your 'eye-stalks' peeled on the Black Cat Bases web-site over the coming months…not only for 'Whiskers and Tentacles' new/old/exclusives figures, but their other lines of 'interesting THINGS'…(bwah-hah-ha!)

-Now there's an 'incentive' for a 'gaming group'…I will have to have an EXCLUSIVE 'Bartentacle' or ltd Ed 'Dr SherlOCTOPUS' figure…to share only with group members or 'fans' who follow the adventures…

Slishfully,
Sgt DWW-btod

Every game is a roleplaying game for me, be it a miniatures game, board wargame or minis game. That's why I don't care for Euro-style boardgames: you play a mathematical equation with a poorly pasted-on theme.

I read to the point where you never played with them again – I may go back and read the rest later. This wasn't the first tale of unreasobnable gaming groups I've read on TMP and I just have to ask – for goodness sake where do you people find these gaming groups ?

"We're going to keep your miniatures" – err, I don't think so, that's called theft.

"you're beating me so you're a cheat" – baloney

"you can't use those figures, they were official last year but now there's a new line" – stick it where the sun don't shine buster

I can't say I've never clutched at straws not to be defeated – only after a number of hours of play I hasten to add – but I hope I usually see games as games, and not little manipulative power struggles feeding an ego trip…I hope so anyway.

I'll go and read the rest now…..

Interesting discussion. I started out playing D&D and boardgames. I could never play a character very long in D&D before getting bored with them. Somewhere between 5-10 level they would retire and I would start a new one. But I did love the role playing and interacting with other people. Great memories. Actually funny thing is I can remember those gaming session 30 years ago, yet cant remember the names of people who work down the hall from me.

I then discovered that I really like to GM. I could create my own worlds and staff them with all sorts of characters. I would run Traveller, Call of Cthulu, Paranoia, and a nice long Viking campaign using Runequest. Then I moved back fulltime to miniatures.

I think that is one reason I like running The Sword and The Flame games. It is easy to imagine oneself marching along the Nile looking for a Dervish ambush. Colonial miniatures are easy to roleplay.

My main three areas of interest would be Colonial, Napoleonics, and Ancients. I have lots of other figures though from alot of different periods. I actually like running games at cons. I used to lug around 700 or so 28mm colonials to run big games. Then sanity returned and I realized 15s weigh alot less and are kinder on my back.

So I guess I have more fun being the creator and master of the battlefield, then being another minion or general on the battlefield. My best friend probably hates the drive home froom conventions just due to the fact that I tell him how to make every game we played in better, more fun and quicker to play.

My favorite character I ever played was a one off for a con game in Florida. Ted E Bear, a three foot tall stuffed bear with an Iron Bowler Hat as a weapon and a love of Honey as a weakness. I think it was for something called Toons. Sometimes a game just is a blast to play.

-I don't mind 'losing' a game…or a character as a general principle. It 'happens' to all of us, from checkers to 'Halo Wars.'

-What I DO mind is folks that are so…'predatory' that rather than 'ease' a NEW person into a game or take a little time 'showing' how things work for 'real' in the game…just try and KILL you as quickly/painfully/ego-boostingly to themselves, as possible.

You know, like the chap in 'dodgeball' that not only wanted to take you out…but leave a welt/bruise or hit you in the face or 'bits'…(which technically was prohibited)…to make it HURT more. They enjoyed a painful win more!

I guess that's sorta a parable for REAL LIFE conflicts isn't it? To WIN at any cost and make the other bloke HURT as much as you can in the process/so they won't be ABLE to 'play'/live? again? Hmmmmmm…?
******************

Ah well, maybe I can get a play by email/IM game going…who knows! Will have to see if anyone contacts me about actually doing it!

But, whatever your 'passion', board, table-top, miniatures (or miniatures IN a RPG! 8-), or computer or even LARP, if you and those that play along with you 'have fun', then that's good! Just remember that IF you have any 'noobies', a little 'decorum/patience/mercy?' might be called for, first time out. Otherwise you might turn them off TOTALLY and possibly for good, to what might have been a richly rewarding experience…or the start of one that leads to another and another…etc.

I'm sure the makers of SFB and other similar games would have been 'appalled' at the attitudes of my first/last SFB game/group. As probably would most others from ATZ to WOW/FOW or Toons!

It just ain't cool to be that CRUEL! (especially first time out…) and yes, it really did happen and I never forgot the 'sting'/unfairness.

I don't think the one chap will forget how painful a twisted pinkie can be as far as making someone immobile to keep them from touching your property either. But I'd only been out of the military about 4 months…so my 'training' was still FRESH!

If it's not 'fun', why do it? and if it's not done IN FUN, even when you 'lose' or your mate does…with a tad of 'sympathy' and even…'wait till next time Red Baron!' promise of 'revenge'…teasingly. Then it's no longer a 'game.'

As they say…real life doesn't have a 'reset button' and I've had enough of THAT over the years. If I play a 'game', I want to have SOME fun and 'escapism', or 'what if Custer had won and Patton had lost' type moments. Sometimes the DRAGON does win! *burp! (that's a great T-shirt logo/joke by the way!)

but don't SMACK me in the 'face'/rub salt in the wound and all that EGOBOO stuff. You might 'win' the game but lose the player(s)…for good!

Ok…I see the red light come on at the back of the theater and they're getting the big hooked cane to pull me off the stage…

Next 'act' coming up!!!

Slishfully,
Sgt DWW-bartentacle, exit-stage left!

I started mainly as a wargameer. I guess I'm lucky as the group I am involved with do use some roleplay aspects in their games. I once played a game of Command Decision as a Russian Tank Commander. The GM gave me a two page history of myself and my regiment. It was great fun to play in character, even if i did end up getting killed!

For the past few years I been leaning more towards roleplaying than miniatures wargaming. I think that may be why I like small level skirmish type of games more than mass battles.

Do a search for PBEM games and look around. I think that you may end up really enjoying a narrative type of roleplaying game such as these.

"Oh, and those SFB knob-heads needed a punch in the face."

I recall many moons ago as a kid going to the local game store, the Multiversal Trading Company in Concord. Dave Hargrave of Arduin fame ran the store, and people would speak about him in hushed tones…and what an "honor" it was if he invited you up to the Big Game Table to partake in a game he was running. It was a mixed "honor" since if you did well you might be invited back, or even win a free miniature -- but woe to those who died, since he'd pull out his hammer and smash your figure!! Always thought that was a jerky thing to do. And all his games ended up as absurd death traps. Can't recall ever surviving a single dungeon crawl…lost one figure too many and decided against the "honor" of playing…

"…using Chainmail rules…"

Wow, who needs acid? That caused a war gamer "flashback" that was Cosmic!

Gracias,

Glenn,

who never tried acid, just watched friends destroy themselves with assorted drugs…

At the core of our hobby is rolling dice, and for me I'm just always happy that people "roll their dice". If anything it's a shame to hear that you haven't had any luck getting games in.

Re: the SFB knobs – I had a similar experience in the late eighties/early nineties here in Australia. I've always felt that the nucleus of the hobby in the early stages were a lot of players (not all mind you) who lacked a lot of social skills, or lacked a lot of human empathy. This was their one domain in life where they weren't marginalised as nerds, losers etc. Letting them get all worked up for a few hours a week and acting like a-holes was my idea of doing community service, give these chaps a chance to feel good about themselves. It also distracted them as I put the moves on their sisters – I kid you not I started playing with these two guys so I could meet their respective sisters. They were absolute tools, all of what's been discussed above and more. But it was worth the cost, I got known in their homes and wasn't seen as some random stranger. Made some of the shennanigans I got up to later with some of the "ladies of the house" easier to get away with.

Rats – I always liked the Arduin stuff, but now I'll always think of that story….

Still, do we not all have feet of clay ? Unless we're Iron golems of course, then we'd have feet of iron. Or Diamond golems, but let's not go there…although they tend to have diamonds on the soles of their shoes….

Dances With Words – I've read all the postings now, and wonder if this might be of interest :

link

there's been a series of reports from an ongoing solo colnial campaign driven by this system in Lone Warrior (journal of the Solo Wargamers Association). I don't know, but it might be what you are looking for – character driven wargames.

"…When I did do role playing (D&D) back in the day, I always thought of it as basically a skirmish wargame…"

Empathy vibes for that comment.

But the role play was dependent on the attitude of the players followed by the DM. Lost a several month old friendship when a I played the character "too well."

Character was a rough street fighter/freedom fighter, lower class dwarf thief/fighter who had unsuccessfuly tried to rebel in his youth against the Lawful/Neutral, border line evil, Grey Elves who ruled the city with an Iron Fist (minus the Velvet Glove.)

In the scenario he lost his only trustworthy friend (my then adult (30+) girlfriend's, now wife, character, a priestess of Fate who was sliding from Neutrality into Neutral/Good as a character because of her desire to help my character "grow" in his exile) – I the player recognized the scene but the Dwarf wouldn't know that – and, after my wife's character took the poison to free the party, when the High Elf (un-related group but still an elf) wanted/insisted to take her body out (despite the priestess's stated wishes) my Dwarf blurted out something along the lines of, "Leave her alone, you Elven Bitch!" Totally outside my real life persona but I was deep into playing the character, far deeper then I realised.

I apologized after the game for the character's wording and emphasised I was as shocked by the words myself but she obviously was upset and was unable to separate the Dwarf's words and me – the player.

The couple dropped out of the game after "having scheduling conflicts" for several weeks and the young lady never spoke to me or (to my knowledge) to my lady (now my wife) ever again. Eventually we left the Left Coast and moved to the Midwest…

I still like the concept of role play but always approach it more guardedly then in the past.

Gracias,

Glenn

I once wrote a joke, why did the chicken cross the road,

TO show Dances With Words it could be done with less than a thousand words.

cluck, cluck…
8-)

I personally never played RPGs nor have I ever played any CCGs.

I have always been strictly a boardgaming and then a miniature gamer. Mainly historical with a little SciFi and Fantasy but No pulp or horror.

Others atrarted in many different formats. In my opinion we are all still part of the gaming community.

Since about 1970 on I have mainly enjoyed wargames. First I played on the floor with the old plastic Airfix. In my early teens (around 1979) I learned about metal figures and started collecting. For a brief period-79-83 I was into RPGS, but historical figures were always my main interest.

I do like SF and Pulp, and 'low fantasy'(my Dark Ages figures can occasionally fight a giant boar or sabretooth tiger, but only weak magic and no elves allowed)

A memorable RPG sesion loosly based on CoC saw the gamemaster set up props all round his house (downstairs cupboard was a submanrine), a fantastic and memorable game. But I did annoy one of the players (the captain of the exploration ship) who didn't take too kindly to my snotty dismissive remarks to him…..

I should point out that they were "in character" the GM had precreated characters and my description was "French marine scientist, arrogant, believes he is running the expedition" , so put on my worst French accent and started ordering the rest of the party around (because, hey, I was running the mission, so "I don't need to listen to no steenkeen sailor's advice")

Once I realised he was peeved I did try to explain that I was playing the character as given…but I'm not sure he believed me

That first group sounds dreadful."Kill and keep"???!!!What sort of mentality would you have to have to get a kick out of going home greedily clutching something you had extorted from some unwitting newcomer? Having said that I believe some of the "collectable" games include a play for keeps possibility-totally open to abuse.
I suppose there are idiots aplenty whether its RPG or traditional wargaming--its just bad luck if you encounter them.
On the general theme,I haven't done any RPG-ing for decades but I'm more attracted to the concept of skirmish games with characters and story than to a full-scale battle.
Certainly I wouldn't touch competitive games with a ten-foot pole--in any leisure activity there always seems to be someone who wants to turn it into a power struggle.Watching two Ancients players glaring bitterly at each other over the table many years ago in St Georges Hall Liverpool convinced me this would be a bad idea!
My personal view on the best games are participation games where the hosts have put aside their egos and are devoted to making sure the visitors enjoy themselves.Isn't that what its about?

I have a passion for RPG'S, always have. There's just something about being able to immerse yourself into another realm, person, etc that truly frees your mind. I do like war gamming, taken as a casual game, but it will never beat a good RPG session!

CoC was a personal favorite of mine, now though I enjoy Fantasy Flight Dark Reign. Pretty stats heavy but taken more as 'reference material' rather then 'stone tablets' it is quite entertaining!

Don't lose hope DWW there will always be a way to Game, way too many RPG'ers out there for it to die!

Keep Slishing!!
ADK