"Boardgame dice/mechanics in wargames - skirmish/rpg" Topic

I'm still ironing out the core concepts but I have a good idea of the direction I want to go. I could use a lot more input though. I haven't even begun testing this.

At its core, this is a skirmish game that revolves around the concept of Stunts and stunt dice. The reason for this is that in a lot of games, not just skirmish games, once units are engaged in melee or combat, things devolve into a dice roll off to see who wins. The system I'm developing hopes to use boardgame components to make this even more interesting by allowing you to interpret the dice in ways that generate extra effects, aka stunts.

A good example is a 1 on 1 swordfight in movies. In skirmish games like Mordheim or Confrontation: Dogs of War, as soon as two units get into melee, it's just rolling and more dice rolling to see who finally hits and kills. In movies however, you get great swordfights like the duel in The Princess Bride, or more deadly fights like those in Lord of the Rings. These stunts do things like move units around while still "engaged" in melee, causing things like being pinned to a wall and losing defense to happen.

Another thing is to make use of terrain more interesting in skirmish games. Of course, you will notice a distinct similarity to the descent boardgame combat system, this is intended. However, I want to go way beyond descent's implementation to make such special dice integrated well into a more traditional wargame.

There are six different kinds of stunt dice each of which have icons on their faces. Right now I only have 4 icons, which are Bullseye, Blood, Brains, and Arrows. Bullseye represent general accuracy, Blood represents damage and strength, Brains is for tactics and discipline, Arrows are for speed and agility. When you roll these dice, the resulting icons on face you get can be used to power Stunts in a similar way you would tap mana or other resource cards to use cards in a CCG or boardgame.

The six kinds of stunt dice are as follows:
Combat – the basic common die. It has a wide variety of icons on it, but fewer multiples of one icon.
Maneuver – has more Arrow icons.
Brute – a lot more Blood icons
Precision – More Bullseyes
Tactical – More Brains
Elite – more of everything

I've made mockups of them here:
picture

If you want to try them out you can cut them out and glue or tape them to a die. You'll need roughly 2 of each Stunt Die. The game doesn't use numbered dice much at all, maybe for only 1-2 things.

All stats are represented as a number and type of Stunt Dice averaging around 2 stunt dice per stat. Sometimes you'll have a stat that has 2-3 types available, but you can roll a max of two so you must choose. However, an alternative I'm considering is keeping a traditional numbers based wargame based on d10s or 2d6.

At the start of a game, leaders roll Discipline dice, higher number of Brain icons wins initiative. Some leaders will be able to count these rolls for Initiative Stunts, for example "Lead by Might – For the initiative roll for this model, this model may expend 2 Hurt icons for 1 Brain icon." or "Wait for it… – For the cost of 1 Brain and 1 Maneuver icons, you lose initiative this turn, but at any point during the game you may activate one of your units immediately after ending an activation of another of your units." These will make more sense later.

The game will use alternating activations, but it will be common to have various units able to act in tandem with others units (two units activate one after another, one unit commands the other to activate, etc…) This is balanced out by the fact that fights aren't instantly deadly in this game, but rather they span multiple turns, with interesting things happening each turn.

When a model attacks another, you roll basic Melee/Ranged dice + weapon dice + any other special effects/abilities.

Defender rolls defense dice (??? Not sure how and when defense takes effect). Apply Defensive Stunts, the stunt determines the defender's target number (or maybe it's a numbered stat) and affects how the attacker's dice are interpreted, and also sets the target number for the attack.

Attacker counts the number of Bullseye Icons in his roll, if the number of Bullseye icons exceeds the target's Defense, the attack hits, no dice are Expended to determine if you hit, however if you have the option you may choose to expend other icons to boost your result and get a hit.

If the attack hits, the attacking player may expend icons and compare it to the target's Toughness, if the number of Blood exceeds Toughness, the model takes a wound, any remaining hurt icons on other unexpended dice can be used for Effects. [Alternatively, it won't be a straight up comparison and instead if you have a "Hit" you can choose from various stunts that require a Hit result, these stunts also do damage.]

Regardless of whether you hit, you can still use the dice to power Effects. Some Effects require a hit, other Effects can cause damage even without a hit (but these are rare). If the attacker doesn't have enough Blood icons to cause a wound after hitting, he can use the Hurt icons he has available to power effects. In general, Effects that require a hit will do more straight up damage, effects that don't require a hit do less damage or none, but have more secondary effects.

I'm still not sure what kind of damage system to use right now. I could use Warmachine damage boxes, adding on injuries after a certain amount of boxes are filled. Or I could use a wound system similar to how a lot of wargames use, or even and Confrontation-like system.

Stunts
During certain phases and actions, when you roll the effects dice you can choose to expend dice to power effects. Each effect has requirements before they can be used, a cost, text describing the result of the Effect. Some effects have boosts, which will change the outcome of the effect, often adding to it, if you expend more dice to power it. To power Effects, you must Expend dice.

Expending dice
To expend dice, you must remove 1 or more dice from a roll, counting all the number of icons of each type on the face of the die, all the icons gained are then spent for the effect. All dice expended can only be used for one effect, any unused icons are lost. You may still use multiple effects, but you must pay for them separately.
[Alt. 1 – only 1 type of icon can be gained from a die.]
[Alt. 2 – expend dice at one die at a time, the icons must immediately go towards paying all or part of an effect's cost, any icons left on the die are lost. Repeat until the Effect is fully paid.]

This method for expending dice makes it so that a player, after getting a good roll, will have an interesting choice between lots of smaller Stunts or going for one of the bigger Stunts. Since extra icons are lost, it also prevents good rolls or units rolling a lot of dice from being too deadly

I've included 3 very basic Stunts below.

***

Hand to Hand Stunts

Name: Push
Requirements: Attack
Description: Target model is forced to move up to D3" inches + 1" for every extra arrow spent directly away from the attacking model. If target model is pushed back into difficult terrain it must make a (???) agility check or be knocked down. If the target model is pushed into an impassable obstacle, immediately roll 1 extra Precision die against it. If pushed off a ledge the model counts as having fallen and use the appropriate rules. A model may resist being pushed by spending Blood icons on its defense roll, 1 blood icon for each inch negated. Attacking model must follow up back into base to base with target model.
Cost: 2x Arrow + X Arrows

Name: Reposition
Requirements:
Description: Move either the target model or the attacking model 1" in any direction to the side, or a way from the opposing model, but not towards it. The opposing model must follow up and face the newly moved model.
Cost:: Arrow, Brain

Name: Slash
Requirements: Hit
Description: Basic attack, do 1 damage for every 2x Blood icons spent.
Cost: X blood

Name: Shield breaker
Requirements: Equipped Axe, Hit,
Description: Target model takes 1 damage and loses any bonuses for its shield.
Cost: Arrow, 3x Blood

Defensive Stunts

Name: Give Ground
Requirements: Defense
Description: Move back D3 directly away from attacking model, but negate two icons worth of Bullseye or Blood. If this makes the attack no longer hit, then the opposing model may no longer select Stunts that require a hit.
Cost: 2x Arrow, Brain

All of this is nowhere near finalized. In fact this draft is less than a first draft, and is more of a putting thoughts down on paper so that I can sort them. I also don't plan on making this a retail game so I'm fine posting it here.

I'm also toying around with the idea that there are no "Basic Stunts", aka no level 1 stunts like the Push and Slash stunts above. Instead, each icon is interpreted on a basic level to do one basic function, such as blood drops causing damage, arrows always pushing units around, and more. Then the stunts themselves are always special cases attached to gear, skills, race, that allow you to exchange those dice for those special effects. Of course, the problem here is that there needs to be an incentive to want to not just do basic damage, and instead do things like forcing your opponent's back into a wall to lower his defense.

bad link

Worked OK for Mme?

Doesn't work for me either.

This system sounds WAY too complicated for a skirmish game. If you are playing a card game maybe this works but what you propose seems unmanageable. If i have a skirmish with five guys on each side and I have to roll all these special dice for all five of their combats it will be impossible to finish.

Maybe in a one on one environment you can implement some of what you propose but that then becomes an RPG game. Systems like the d6 system and GURPS already have very comprehensive man to man combat that is not just a dice roll. They account for everything from posture to hit location and throws and flips and so forth.

I understand your consternation with the push two figures together and keep rolling dice method but whatever you propose no matter how elegant has to have a dimension that allows it to be executed in one die roll.

Wow, you've really pushed the envelope with this design. I have never seen anything like it.

Deanoware commented that is awfully complicated for a skirmish game. I'm inclined to agree with him, but elements of your scheme would go a long way to sprucing up the one-on-one-roll-til-someone-drops that I too find unsatisfying.

Perhaps each man tosses a stunt die at the turn's beginning and is afforded an extra move, attack, or parry outside the normal sequence of play?

I think your concept is a promising one. Perhaps even as a play aid to be used in other games?

Yeah, I already realized a while back that having a huge list of stunts isn't a good idea, which is why one of the changes I'm working on now is a standardized way of interpreting each icon. Then limiting the list of stunts.

In fact, the criticism of this being more akin to card games is a good one. Each card contains all the rules it needs, and the player only has access to a limited number of them in his hands, drastically limiting what you have to worry about.

One thing to remember is tht at stunt dice replace normal dice for all forms of resolution in the game, and you're really only rolling 1-3 stunt dice for each action. One roll of the stunt dice determines To Hit, Armor, and To Wound, with the addition of the extra stunt effects. The key to what I was attempting is to make less rolls do more, alongside making those rolls do more interesting stuff.

I also considered making this an add on to other games while I was designing the initial specs. In that version, you choose between two dice every time you attack. There would only be 1 icon per die face and that die would do just 1 thing such as an arrow icon simply moving the fight 2" in a chosen direction. But they would also combine more simply with each other, for example if you rolled two dice and got a Arrow and Fist icon, this means your character did a bash or throw or similar.

In either case, I don't want the Stunts to do basic things like give an extra attack, that's more direct combat oriented.

For those having trouble with the image, right-click on the link and choose Save As…, it seems internet explorer has a problem with large jpegs.

Reminds me strongly of "Throwing Stones" ( link – BoardGameGeek ). Great minds must think alike!

Well,

I think you always have to look at time of game as an issue when doing rules. How long should a game of 'X' figures take to complete.

That said, there is a great game model called 'Over There' it allows you to conduct small unit actions from WWI to the present day. You can download it at:

link

Frankly, I think this system could be utilized to make a great skirmish sword and shield game. As the author has not given me permission to use this system in this fashion, (frankly has been totally silent), I will say little more except that you should give this a look. With a little imagination, I think you can come up with something that will work very well for what you are trying to accomplish.

mjc