| 6pounder | 15 Jun 2009 5:25 a.m. PST |
Struggle for the Middle Sea: The Great Navies at War in the Mediterranean Theater, 1940-1945 Anyone read or seen any reviews on Vincent O'Hara's new book yet? If Amazon can be trusted he apparently did well on the German Navy in WW2. |
| TheDreadnought | 15 Jun 2009 8:47 a.m. PST |
Don't have it yet, but it did look interesting. I have the two on US & Germany. . . but really use them more as reference books than as something I sat down and read cover to cover. Was thinking I will probably need to pick this one up as well. |
| Charlie 12 | 15 Jun 2009 8:42 p.m. PST |
If past is prologue, then I think his Med book should be very good. I've got both of his other books and they're both very good with solid research. His 'US Navy Against the Axis' was particularly good with a lot of solid analysis of tactics used by sides. I've already got a pre-order in for the new book. |
| 6pounder | 23 Jun 2009 9:34 p.m. PST |
Looks like the Naval Institute Press is late with this one. Amazon is saying 1-4 weeks and B&N has none in stock. |
| ptdockyard | 28 Jun 2009 8:16 a.m. PST |
I have the book and have read most of it. It is very well writtten and has great detail an pretty much every action in the Med. Mr. O'Hara writes the book with a foundational purpose of showing how well each navy achieved their strategic objectives. For example, we all have read about the times RN surface forces or subs had wiped out Axis convoys. Not mentioned is how the Italians managed to get over 90% of supply shipping to their intended delivery points. He refutes many of the rather biased historical accounts of the Italian Navy which is very refreshing. Shortly after reading his account of Mers-el-Kebir, I found a great video of that action on Youtube. It was amazing to see the action played out just as he described it. Definitely worth the money!! |
| 6pounder | 28 Jun 2009 8:37 a.m. PST |
ptdockyard: Excellent! Thank you for posting. I will order it. And btw, the status has changed from "1-4 weeks" to "In Stock" at Amazon. I am fascinated by Mers-el-Kebir and love playing out a scenario where the French get to sea. Can you post Youtube url? (Or is it as simple as searching on Mers-el Kabir?) For comparison purposes I am also interested to see how much it differs from Jack Green's book on (more or less) the same topic. A more balanced perspective yields more balanced scenarios for gaming purposes
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| ptdockyard | 28 Jun 2009 12:53 p.m. PST |
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| 6pounder | 28 Jun 2009 5:43 p.m. PST |
Amazing stuff
and not models in a bathtub or a computer simulation either. I had no idea there was documentary footage. Thanks! |
| 6pounder | 04 Jul 2009 10:32 a.m. PST |
OK, so I got the book and here's what I've worked out so far. The primary focus of this reference work in on surface naval actions involving major Italian warships which are defined as "
displac[ing] five hundred tons or more, were armed with at least a 3.5-inch gun, and were capable of fifteen knots." (p.xvii of the Introduction) In other words anything from the size of a minesweeper on up. -- By O'Hara's definition Italian warships participated in 34 of the 55 major surface actions fought in the Mediterranean during the 5 years of WW2. Things like Taranto, special forces, the submarine war and coastal defense operations are of secondary interest. O'Hara's thesis is that the Regina Marina largely succeeded in it's goal of sea control in the central Med
and that the Royal Navy, while successful in winning "sea control victories" had set its feet wrong strategically speaking. Nor did the arrival of American forces conclusively "break the deadlock" in a battle of attrition. -- Viewed this way the avoiding of decisive battle, so often negatively commented upon, was actually an appropriate strategy that effectively achieved its ends. It is not a book that seeks to compete with De Belot's THE STRUGGLE FOR THE MEDITERRANEAN 1939-1945 or Greene and Massignani's THE NAVAL WAR IN THE MEDITERRANEAN 1940-1943 but to buttress their major points with a more tactical focus that documents the attritional aspects of the naval war in this theater. It also sets out to dispel certain "myths" such as supposed Italian incompetence and the "legend that the Germans did all the real fighting (xv.)" The key point here being summed up by this measure: "With regard to Italy's mercantile war
98 percent of the men and 90 percent of the material that set forth from Italian ports for Libya, Tunisia, of the Balkans arrived safely." (p.259) |
| Chouan | 07 Jul 2009 2:16 a.m. PST |
One of my concerns about Naval History, and Naval Wargaming, is that it focuses almost entirely on the warships, and ignores the merchant ships that were so crucial. If 90-98% of the stuff got through, then the Italian Navy acheived a significant success. However, we hear nothing about the Italian merchant ships themselves! or their crews! |
| TheDreadnought | 07 Jul 2009 6:29 a.m. PST |
That's because merchant ships are not sexy. As far as gamers go, the vast majority want to play out epic sea battles, as opposed to watch an unopposed merchant ship creep slowly across a gameboard, knowing that somewhere a battle is being fought that allowed that to happen. I don't know that naval history ignores the value of merchant traffic though. Most contemporary histories of WWI point to Jutland and the WWI naval conflict as a decisive win for the British. It wasn't necessary for the British to wipe out the German fleet, only to keep the German fleet from strangling the British merchant traffic. Thus, much as we wargamers would have liked to have seen more toe-to-toe slugfests, the British strategy was actually the wiser course. As for dramatic confontations between the two fleets. . . that's what we have wargames for. :) |
| 6pounder | 07 Jul 2009 8:23 a.m. PST |
Exactly. Games are not NEARLY the same thing as academic history. Generally, they are more like historical short stories. Most players are interested in gaming out what they regard (rightly or wrongly) as pivotal or dramatic engagements, not representative ones. Of course you CAN play very detailed simulations, but very few gamers are motivated to that degree
and most of them still want to pretend to be a commander and/or fire guns. The vast majority of us prioritize either having fun or winning
and as a college professor once told me, "Son, nobody gets to their third priority in real life." Though I wish it were otherwise, I have found that he was correct. |
| Chouan | 07 Jul 2009 9:30 a.m. PST |
I take your point, but it doesn't mean that the merchant ships, if you're playing a convoy game for example, should be little more than counters, or, at best, generic cargo ships. |
| 6pounder | 08 Jul 2009 1:15 p.m. PST |
Well not many manufacturers make specific tankers or "the merchants of PQ-17" or what have you
When playing out a convoy engagement I do try to make it a point, where possible, to get the names of the ships and their general place in a convoy correct the same as one might do for warships however. |
Mal Wright  | 08 Jul 2009 3:20 p.m. PST |
"When playing out a convoy engagement I do try to make it a point, where possible, to get the names of the ships and their general place in a convoy correct". Me too. My merchants are individually named and often individually modelled to be correct. My rules also provide victory points for rescuing survivors in the water, and for trying to save the ship too. Leaving them behind, or the ship behind, can result in penalties. With a bit of research some of the ships can become old friends that appeared in convoy after convoy during real life. Its sad when you see one survive convoy voyage after convoy voyage, only to be eventually sunk. Especially when its right near the end of the war. Many will be found on the same route year after year, then suddenly pop up in a convoy to Russia or something, that is quite a change of climate. "That's because merchant ships are not sexy." Oh I dunno about that
there are some rusty old tubs that I have added to my collection specifically because of their amazing record. Some were in the 'refuse to die' bracket and you cant help but admire them. My book collection has many volumes on merchant ships, with my favourite being 'Fighting Tramps'. Some of those normally anonymous ships pulled off some amazing deeds. |
Mal Wright  | 08 Jul 2009 3:24 p.m. PST |
Oh and BTW. North Head Miniatures do specific merchant ships for convoys, because I helped with the research. My favourite is the model of the old Hog Island cargo carrier, but their Doxford is nice and they have an excellent Empire Faith fitted as a CAM ship. Its also the only accurate CAM ship in 1:3000 scale because I made sure they knew to put the catapult at an angle, rather fore and aft. I recently received a package of samples and was delighted to see some of the ships that were commonly found in convoys, yet often overlooked by manufacturers. |
| Chouan | 09 Jul 2009 2:19 a.m. PST |
I'm very pleased to hear it, only as I mentioned elsewhere, there wasn't a "Doxford class" as such, even though Doxford did introduce the idea of a standardised cargo ship. In terms of "fighting tramps", some merchant ships were able to put up a good show, rather than simply being victims. This was, of course, harder when in a N.Atlantic convoy than when operating independently away from that area. Some Blue Funnel ships were successfully able to fight off U-Boats on the surface, and even German surface raiders weren't always as successful as they'd have hoped, because of the actions of merchant ships. Canadian Pacific's "Beaverford" (a British Company, despite the name) fought the German Panzerschiff "Scheer" for 5 hours before being blown up, thus enabling most of convoy HX84 to escape. She was armed with 2 obsolete Japanese 4" guns, the "Scheer"s 6 x 11" Her maximum speed with her single screw was 14knots. "Scheer" could do 28.5knots and was signioficantly better armed, and, of course, armoured. link This will tell you more: link and link and link HMS "Jervis Bay" was herself a merchant ship, with a Merchant Navy crew, with the exception of her Captain, some signals ratings, and some gunners. The Merchant Navy crew had signed special articles which made them temporarily Royal Navy, or Royal Navy Reserve. Similarly, HMS "Rawalpindi", sunk by the "Scharnhorst" and the "Gneisnau", was also a merchant ship with a Merchant Navy crew link and link Royal Mail Line's HMS "Alcantara" was similar. Her 4th Engineer, George Charlton, was woken at night, whilst off watch in Southampton, told to sign a document, and went back to sleep. When he awoke in the morning he found that he was Sub Lieutenant(E) George Charlton RNR, in which rank he served throughout the war, sailing on the same ship that he had been a Merchant Navy Engineer Officer on, fulfilling the exact same duties. See link for details of the ship and her career. |
| TheDreadnought | 14 Sep 2009 12:26 p.m. PST |
I'm about half way through Struggle for the Middle Sea right now. I think he had a goal this time of a book that was more easily readable front to back than his two previous works. His previous books I use regularly as a reference, but I haven't done an end to end read on yet. I'm enjoying SftMS, but part of me almost wishes it was more "reference booky" like the others since its partially leisure and partially research reading for me. |
| rcbecker1 | 24 Nov 2009 7:38 p.m. PST |
Its a great book for beginners of rersearch in there Med Gamming. |