"So how about your favorite Tolkien villain?" Topic

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Gollum.

But then the other villains aren't really as well developed as he is. Some of the Orcs are amusing but only on stage very briefly.

The Ring Wraiths in general and the Witch King specifically-they are unrepentant pure evil all the way to the end.

Funny that Allen, I never saw Bert, Tom and Bill as evil, just having a different world view.

I think they would have been quite happy to let the other races prosper so that there would always be plenty of good things to eat. They no longer answered to the Eye or his minions, they were just a group of companions getting by in their little corner of the wide world.

They are great characters.

The Wring Raiths in general and the Witch King in particular are about what you can expect from Undead help, who have hung around long past their statutory retirement age. I would love to see someone point out to me anything they did competently… They couldn't even track down a measly hobbit and take his Wring away!

The best villain is Saruman, since in the true spirit of villain-dom, he rejected Good and asked "What's in it for me?"

I would love to see someone point out to me anything they did competently…

Isn't that the real weakness of evil, they rarely attract truly competent help? Ultimately isn't it always the cliche of arrogance or oversite or just plain stupidity that is evils undoing? Like a tiny exhaust port on a planet sized space ship--didn't anybody think about putting a heavily reinforced exhaust roof or hood over it? Or they put together some crazy over the top torture technique when the hero is in their grasp that allows for plenty of escape chances instead of just taking out a pistol and shooting Bond, James Bond, in the head.

Or, baffles in the piping…

"Isn't that the real weakness of evil, they rarely attract truly competent help? Ultimately isn't it always the cliche of arrogance or oversite or just plain stupidity that is evils undoing?"

You see it every day!

That is an amazing make-up job on that goblin, Allen.

Didn't he get stepped on by an ent in the second movie?

I thought he was the gobo that side stepped the stone hurled by the trebuchet outside Minas Tirth.

The Balrog of Moria. Too bad he only appears in one chapter!

The Silmarillion, being closer in spirit to the Norse myth Tolkien studied is much better for villians. Saruman is a retreat of SDauron who is a retreat of Melkor.

Feanor is a better villian

Wormtouong the ultimate spin docotor!

Frodo. And he nearly got away with it if it hadn't been for that pesky Gollum. Though I suppose you could blame his behaviour on the books most prominent villain. The Ring.

I always thought the Barrow Wights were especially creepy, even if they only appear in one chapter, as are the Mewlips from Tolkien's poem of the same name. Of the more prominent villains, I think that Saruman and the Witch-king are my favorites.

Christopher Tolkien, by a mile.

'The Return of the Bottom-wights, found down the middle of a piece of paper behind the toilet in my dad's caravan' £15.99 GBP

Pat

Gorgrath, of course.

Whatinheck is a gorgrath?

Morgoth Bauglir, the most powerful of all the lords of evil the world has seen or will ever see. If you like Saruman because he was good and turned to evil ("what's in it for me") then Morgoth makes him look like a little boy: he was a god with greater power and wisdom than any other Ainur….

Whoever wrote the extraneous and anachronistic dialogue in the movies. "Central nervous system", forsooth.

New Line Cinema

@ Grape Ape – which one do you see as the villain?
Smaug came by his treasure in the manner natural for dragons, while Bilbo is a "cheat" ("What have I got in my pocket?" Isn't really a riddle.) and a sneaky little thief.

when we say "favorite" do we mean the one we are most sympathetic to (Gollum/Boromir), the one we'd fear the most (Shelob – I hate spiders), the one we most despise (Denethor – betrayer of trust, tries to burn his own son alive),or the one who gets the most "evil cool" points (undecided)?

Feanor of course. Duh.

sigh, you people really are showing your racist right-wing credentials in trying to cast the unfortunate Ethnones of this tragic battle-scarred land as 'goodies' or 'baddies'.

I did a 2-week 'Orcism Awareness' Course at Unversity, so am uniquely qualified to comment (as well as uniquely qualified to get a job in Human Resources and decide whether you lose your Job for Orcism in the Workplace).

The 'War in Middle Earth , or Elfo-orkic war as we experts prefer, was the result of the interventionist policies of despicable Noldor Politicians. Their refusal to allow Morgoth, and then the Post-Morgoth Sauron Government to attempt to drag Middle-Earth Kicking and Screaming into a modern Industrialist Society condemned millions of People of all colours, Heights and forhead-textures to a life of almost Mediaeval Squalor.

Pat

Cute, Sane Max.

Turning as "sssserious" as can be for this subject, I award the following:

Most developed Vilian: Smeagol/Gollum. I want to to feel sympathy for Smeagol but can't, pity is as close as I get.

Most despicable: Saruman (makes most modern traitors blush in their inadequacies.)

Most pitiful and most self-destructive, maybe most foolish: Denethor.

Most "Evil": Morgoth. Thanks for making feel like I was not the only one thinking that, Doug.

Feanor: Yeah, needs some kind of award for sheer arrogance…

Gracias,

Glenn

joedog "@ Grape Ape – which one do you see as the villain?
Smaug came by his treasure in the manner natural for dragons, while Bilbo is a "cheat" ("What have I got in my pocket?" Isn't really a riddle.) and a sneaky little thief."

In other words, Bilbo came by his treasure in the manner natural for Hobbits. Or people.

"when we say "favorite" do we mean the one we are most sympathetic to (Gollum/Boromir), the one we'd fear the most (Shelob – I hate spiders), the one we most despise (Denethor – betrayer of trust, tries to burn his own son alive),or the one who gets the most "evil cool" points (undecided)?"

The one who gets the most cool points of any kind.

Sane Max "I did a 2-week 'Orcism Awareness' Course at Unversity, so am uniquely qualified to comment (as well as uniquely qualified to get a job in Human Resources and decide whether you lose your Job for Orcism in the Workplace)."

Human Resources? HUMAN Resources? What a raco-centric term!

I believe he's using the term 'Human Resources' in the Orco-centric manner. i.e. cooking.

Peter Jackson

Regarding the competency issues, if Evil would only consult the Evil Overlord lists
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we would not be having this discussion.

That list was always a scream. Yes, Sauron clearly violates at least #5,

"The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness."

and #49,

"If I learn the whereabouts of the one artifact which can destroy me, I will not send all my troops out to seize it. Instead I will send them out to seize something else and quietly put a Want-Ad in the local paper."

BTW, what's your favorite evil overlord rule?

Mine is #54,

"I will not strike a bargain with a demonic being then attempt to double-cross it simply because I feel like being contrary."

Ah, my favorite was always Smaug. He had the most style, even if he wasn't as evil and powerful as his ancestors.

Not necessarily my true favorite, but I want to see that the Mouth of Sauron at least gets a mention. (The book version, not the over-the-top film version). I share Tolkien's fascinated horror at a character so wholly lost to another's domination that he has even forgotten his own name. The true evil in Tolkien's worldview was the will to dominate others, and the Mouth of Sauron is a great look at what a world dominated by Sauron or Morgoth would have been like.

I know they weren't in the books and all, but I liked Lurtz and Gothmog in the films. Lurtz particularly, because of his brutally evident hard-arse credentials – so much in fact that I made him my Pro Evo centreforward. He bullies defences.
Gothmog because of his hideous deformities. That orc had about three necks.

I wouldn't call Gollum a villan just a misunderstood charachter. My favorite villan is the Mouth of Sauron.

Gollum was not a misunderstood character. On the contrary, a considerable amount of the main cast of LOTR went to great lengths to attempt to understand him, especially Frodo and Gandalf.
Just being pathetic, tormented and borderline-insane does not make one not a villain. On the contrary, it quite often makes the best villains, as I should know. Bwahahahahahahahaaahahahhahaahhahahhaha! etc