"Flames of War: Impact" Topic

That alleged GW paradigm included a free version of the 2nd edition rulebook if you had a copy of the 1st edition.

Similarly when they upgraded one of the lists books last year, anyone owning the previous edition got a voucher entitling them to a free supplement.

They ain't GW.

Not even close, really. It's just easy for those that want to slam them to trot out that old canard.

And those V1 books were given free update PDFs to bring them into V2.

So, if you had grabbed the free V2 booklet rules, and downloaded the free V2 pdfs you could still be playing MW FOW, without having dropped a cent more on rulebooks or sourcebooks.

Had you decided to go into LW, you could have bought one sourcebook, or these days you can get a complete official army list (without needing any other books) on pdf. That includes a variety of the more obscure lists that didn't make it into a sourcebook.

As an old fart wargamer I have to say the impact has been good, although with some downsides.

I spent years trying to get our club playing WW2 in 15mm but other than the same old quartet, no joy. FoW got taken up not once, but twice, once by the "competition" players when they were fed up with DBx and then again by the GW types just as the competetion lads were moving on to FOG.

The other plus has been the raising of the bar on 15mm figs and vehicles. I know some don't like the FoW figs (sometimes with good reason) but they are at least easy to get hold of, and some are very good, especially the vehicles.

On the down side, I have noticed a trend towards ninja and cyberman WW2 armies – ie lots of unpainted or just undercoated figures on the table. This seems a carry over from the GW players. Flipside is of course that some of the new blood types can paint beautifully having been schooled through the GW process, and they put my usual drab toys to shame.

Had you decided to go into LW, you could have bought one sourcebook, or these days you can get a complete official army list (without needing any other books) on pdf.

So can you get all the special rules for individual forces without buying all the books?

If so where? I'd like to draw up a list of them.

Derek, I think they're al on the BF web-site. Am working on my laptop curently so don't have the url, but a google search should find it.

I guess you want a list of talking points to continue bitching about, huh, Derek? Jeez, dude, give it a rest!

Got it in one Nazrat.

If they're going to write a lengthy series of special rules they should at least put them all in one place rather than make you buy umpteen supplements before you can access them all.

For playing purposes and for mocking purposes.

Does a single list of special rules exist? Or do you have to buy all the supplements to get them?

Erm…. as I said I think they're available on the website.

Please… repeating myself is tiresome….

Bangorstu wrote:

Erm…. as I said I think they're available on the website.

Please… repeating myself is tiresome….

Erm…. I think you're wrong. It seems that no single list of FoW Special rules has yet been published. You can prove me wrong if you have a url to share.

Some special rules are available to people who don't want to buy all the supplements, but they're presented in ones and twos in pdfs scattered all over the place.

There's a bitchfest on the FoW Forums about it right now.

To their credit Battlefront are responding to this issue and John-Paul is promising that they will produce a consolidated list of German special rules "fairly soon" and that others will follow "soon after" that. Middle of the page at link

Please… inaccurate information is very tiresome indeed…..

Touche!

Whether or not they're in one place, I do know the special rules from the supplements are all there somewhere.

Or at least they used to be – it's possible they've been lost somewhere since the web-page upgrade.

Just had a quick look … if you go to 'Hobby' and look at the articles, the special rules are available as downloads from there.

They are however embedded within the articles, not as a stand-alone list.

But I found the special rules for bocage fighting easily enough.

So no, you don't have to buy the supplements to get the special rules – they're available for free.

They do however take some squirelling out.

I'be also no idea if they're up to date with the Bagration stuff. Not really my thing so haven't been looking.

In other words, despite your assertion that the special rules are all available on the website, you don't know if they all are or not.

And how could you given that there isn't even an index of them all anywhere and you don't own all the supplements?

People in that thread I linked above think they are not all available without buying supplements and nobody from Battlefront has contradicted them.

Derek – well all the ones I've ever needed are…

I'll agree an index would be nice. However I've looked up some of the special rules in the supplements I own, and they're all on line.

So your assertion that you have to buy the supplements to stay au fait with the rules is a false one.

And I'll reiterate the point about an index being something the web-site urgently needs.

So we have….

how to convert 1st ed handbooks to 2nd ed.

link

bocage rules

link

raiding rules

link

late war army lists, some of which come with special rules..

link

That took five minutes.

So whereas I can't categorically state all the special rules are currently on the web-site, plenty of them are.

Whether you like the game or not, it is phenominally well supported by the company concerned.

If you don't like 'em, fair enough. I have my own issues.

But going out of your way to take the mickey is a little sad IMHO.

It had a definite impact on me personally in that it was the rule set that allowed me to transition my boys from WHFB to Historicals. And it is just about the only game of that type within 40 miles of home. I'm also finding it in a lot of shops around the US that don't carry anything else based on history.

As for the game itself: The bulk of the rules for each country are in the main rule book. There are one or two 'specials' in each of the newer supplements, but if I'm not one of of those hyper-competitive tourney player types, why would I feel compelled to know them all? Surely my like-minded opponent can fill me in sportingly before the game, or I can simply ask to have a peek if not in a trusting mood. Most of the special rules tend to be variations on others, just with different names. I don't feel compelled to collect the full OOB for every opponent force that I face either, so I'm happy to show up for a game of IABSM playing a Pacific battle without whinging that I "must" go buy a copy of the Rising Sun supplement before I face the curs. I trust my non-tourney opposition enough to dare to face them for a game of Crossfire using scenarios from the Hit the Dirt supplement without "having" to buy a copy myself. FoW is hardly the first game system to offer up supplements.

The (free) Master Index PDF provides references to books and page numbers for special rules, and is reasonably up to date, and improving with every iteration. Any FoW player (and critic) should download a copy.

I'm an unabashed fan of FoW, but we do tend to sometimes paint the competition with a broad brush (and vice-versa, of course). SOME rule sets are quite complicated, but others are elegantly simple. The good news is that the same figures and basing can often be used with multiple sets, so there's no need to get competitive with the others. As long as I can get a fix of WW2 games, I'm happy. I'm also equally happy to steal the best bits of each game and dump the silly bits, if only I can find an opponent that is game. Sadly, there aren't many.

Which brings us back to the original question. FoW has, and remains hugely influential to my gaming simply because it's THE ONE game that I can find opponents for. I have played one-off games of other WW2 rules, but they tend be be about as rare as FoW at KevanG's club.

I do find it amusing that someone would make a snide comment about Battlefront's use of the Hakka dance and Truscott Trot as flavor for their rules, only to mention a set of rules populated by a character named Hugh Jarce in a fruit-basket hat a couple of posts later. :)

Good thread, guys. FoW is great, so are others. Play what you can find games for and enjoy. Ignore the s.

- Bob

Great post, Bob!

The (free) Master Index PDF provides references to books and page numbers for special rules, and is reasonably up to date, and improving with every iteration. Any FoW player (and critic) should download a copy.

Anyone got a link to this pls?

Nothing shows up when I type Master Index in their site search and there's nothing in the useful downloads section either.

Google is my friend but a search on "Flames of War master index pdf" doesn't come up with anyhting either.

I do find it amusing that someone would make a snide comment about Battlefront's use of the Hakka dance and Truscott Trot as flavor for their rules, only to mention a set of rules populated by a character named Hugh Jarce in a fruit-basket hat a couple of posts later. :)

The Lardies and Battlefront both have a sense of humour.

The Lardies make up silly names for characters in their scenarios for flavour, Battlefront make up silly rules for the troops.

The master index is under Forums->Gaming->Rules Questions, stickied as the 3rd item down (What I'm dreaming of… a definitive index). The guy hosting is keeps it at:

fow.benisch.se/#home

(hard to read link at bottom of the page)

It looks like they've added up to (not including) Hammer & Sickle so far -- at least from what I can tell.

Battlefront definitely should give this thing some sort of quasi-official status and host it. It's an impressive community effort. I've used it in several games, and it's a real time (and frustration) saver!

Be sure to check out the Special Rules index on the last page. So maybe now you won't feel so "compelled" to buy every book. Knowing that there's a special rule, you can simply ask about it when somebody fields a list from that book!

- Bob

Derek H wrote:

[…] The Lardies make up silly names for characters in their scenarios for flavour, Battlefront make up silly rules for the troops.

And others just proclaim that some troops are better than others at certain things with no attempt to provide a historical context. PBI's Ghurkas sure don't like Japanese. I guess you "need" a second book to find out why!

I don't take any of the fluff in FoW or any other rule set too literally. The rules are obviously there to abstract certain things, while the fluff is the author's sometimes-lame written justification. I do appreciate that they at least make some effort to explain special rules rather than the "Germans are just better" sort of tilt that some rules have. The silly names do provide a mnemonic for helping remember to use the rules!

As to making a judgment on the rules based on fluff, humor or lack thereof… I don't. Stealing a quote from Dentatus (presumably the same) quoting another fellow on the Miniature Wargaming forums:

[…]you can tell a good set of rules by the post-game chatter. If the talk is all about the game, it's good. If the talk is about the rules, it's not. […]

I think that's an excellent observation. So when I read gripes about rule fluff, pretty pictures and grumpy "observations" compared to the outright enthusiasm often expressed by players that have just finished a game, they don't mean much to me. Do any of those "issues" really mean anything if a good game is the end result? Why should anybody care what non-players think of their games? So long as I'm finding games and enjoying them, the game's been worth whatever I've put into it.

As I wrote before, FoW's impact on me personally has been huge for exactly that reason.

- Bob

People seem to be getting mixed up between the rules and the people that play the rules. The types of negative personalities described above come with wargaming; the rules lawyer, the win at all cost guys, the tournament players, or the ones who only buy Tigers.

But they are particularly attracted to games designed for tournament play and which use points systems.

Games like FoW.

And this is the problem. They are not attracted to Wargaming. They are attracted to GW games, and Collectible miniatures games. FoW is no doorway to the hobby. The vast majority would never migrate to another system. They would go on and on about complexity and how anybody over 25 is grouchy and grumbly. These games are won by money and construction of armies. The GW system may make money but the fad will die off and it will be another huge nail in wargaming's coffin. Shake off the 50 page complexity debates on every forum on the net and you will really abstract some real players to the hobby. ID also recommend relaying the cost of PC upgrades occasionally. Total up the price you paid for your or you kids PC, ram, video card, processor and other peripheral upgrades and/or replacement machines. Plus the cost of the games. Miniatures aren't that expensive in comparison. Battlefront is a mini GW, and GW aren't saviors to the industry, they are a passionless company driven by profit. Most other producers while certainly in it for money, also have a love of the hobby. Hasbro with CMG's are even worse. They are simply the Toy and Games version of Gordon Gecko.

Supergrover6868 wrote:

And this is the problem. They are not attracted to Wargaming. They are attracted to GW games, and Collectible miniatures games.

Please provide your definition of the term "wargame" then. You're going to have to use some pretty twisty language to come up with something that precludes inclusion of FoW simply because a lot of kids (and adults) enjoy it, but go for it!

FoW is no doorway to the hobby. The vast majority would never migrate to another system.

How absurd:

1. Why is migration to another system a requirement for being included in the ranks of "wargamers"? Must I quit football to play basketball to be considered an athlete?

2. What do you base this on? My kids and I went from WHFB to FoW to dabbling in other historical systems. While the boys are more busy with studies these days, we still get the occasional game in. And I have no reason to believe they won't play with their kids in the future.

They would go on and on about complexity and how anybody over 25 is grouchy and grumbly.

Well, if that shoe fits… :) So you're saying that "the vast majority" complain that "your vast majority" is grouchy and grumbly? It sounds like there's some mutual generalization going on.

It's ironic that the fuse for this particular exchange was lit by someone implying that other games are overly-complex, only to have several responses that there are several good rule sets that eschew complexity. If some older systems weren't complex, why the widespread emphasis on rules that are more streamlined and simpler? Surely it can't be the market pandering to kids? It seems to me that some of us older types enjoy simpler games, even if not to the complete exclusion of complex games. Enjoyment of complex games isn't mutually exclusive of enjoyment of simpler games. I enjoy FoW, and I enjoy other rule systems.

These games are won by money and construction of armies.

Rubbish. Give a skilled player a modest force and they'll be able to make a good game against an inexperienced player with every ueber-toy available.

The GW system may make money but the fad will die off and it will be another huge nail in wargaming's coffin.

Uhm… what?

1. The GW fad seems to have been chugging along longer than quite a few fashion and music trends. They've been around for how many years now? A lot of players grew up with GW and are introducing their kids to it now.

2. If GW-like games aren't wargames, how can they possibly be a nail in the coffin of wargaming? Your statement makes no sense.

Shake off the 50 page complexity debates on every forum on the net and you will really abstract some real players to the hobby.

Can I assume you meant "attract"? FoW is hardly the simplest rule set out there. The mechanics work simply for the most part, but there's a lot to the game. Nothing that requires a slide rule or scientific calculator, but a lot of variables.

ID also recommend relaying the cost of PC upgrades occasionally.

You seem to be under the impression that a computer is required to play FoW. That is not the case.

Total up the price you paid for your or you kids PC, ram, video card, processor and other peripheral upgrades and/or replacement machines. Plus the cost of the games. Miniatures aren't that expensive in comparison.

Ah, but a wargame -- even my beloved FoW -- isn't quite so useful for researching or writing term papers. Now that you mention it, I can actually build one hell of a computer for the price than I've paid for wargames-related materials in recent years. But it's a hobby. There's no need to justify expenses made in the name of relaxation, so long as one keeps priorities straight.

Battlefront is a mini GW, and GW aren't saviors to the industry, they are a passionless company driven by profit.

Ah, we're back to games I see! Most companies are driven by a profit motive. A lot these days are having to make decisions on scaling back operations, closing plants or furloughing workers in a most passionless way. Welcome to the modern reality.

Most other producers while certainly in it for money, also have a love of the hobby.

It's possible to have a love for something and still be effective in business, including making things like hire/fire decisions. A love for the hobby alone isn't going to guarantee survival of a company, any more than being loved by the buying public will. Nice? Sure. But what does this have to do with the rules, or the impact that the game has had in any particular region?

Hasbro with CMG's are even worse. They are simply the Toy and Games version of Gordon Gecko.

Supergrover, you seem to be rambling a bit. Is it the company, the game or the players you don't like? Is FoW not wargaming, or the death of wargaming? Is it a computer game or not? What exactly is your point?

- Bob

Regardless of the fanatic fan boy retaliation. The point is clear as crystal. It is not a gateway to wargaming. IT a gate to the GW system ONLY. IT does no translate in any way to bringing people in to the wargaming hobby regardless of how satisfied retailers are with the revenue stream from it. You bring those kids a manual to any other wargaming and you get nothing but gripping about complexity and silly rambling about grumpy people. In fairness if I had shell several hundred out just to START playing a game Id be stuck with it too. Its immensely expensive. The absurdity is calling it the savior that's the last thing it is. Its ruined it, its a fad and when it goes through the floor and it will, then its all back to square one. FoW and Collectible miniatures games draw away from the hobby. People interested in wargaming spend some time hearing whining about complexity then go straight to this mass marketed stuff. They want some PC hybred. If you could make a computer moves the minis for them they buy that.

1. The GW fad seems to have been chugging along longer than quite a few fashion and music trends. They've been around for how many years now? A lot of players grew up with GW and are introducing their kids to it now.

2. If GW-like games aren't wargames, how can they possibly be a nail in the coffin of wargaming? Your statement makes no sense.

1. I dont see warhammer flying off the shelves anymore. The Bee-gees still sell albums but the fad is over.

2. the statement makes perfect sense. The fan boy emotion is clouding. Warhammer players play Fow it doesn't matter if they are tanks, they could be UFO's its just another outlet for the GW hobby. Same with Collectible miniatures. Star Wars, Superheroes, Battlech, one that had horror characters, Pokemon. Whatever. Its all the same format. The Genre is secondary for them. Its a different hobby. What really boggles is its a hobby the requires such an large initial cost.

340 USD for one US Infantry Army Box, 2nd ED Rule Book and Fortress Europa. To Their Credit the consoldiated the "Codex" books seemingly. Oh yeah the paint and glue and time to construct. Add that all to the Cost.

IT blows my mind how much people are willing to play for "Simplicity."

You seem to be under the impression that a computer is required to play FoW. That is not the case."

Nope not at all. Please re-read my post devoid of fanboy rage.:P

It's possible to have a love for something and still be effective in business,

Yep GW and its mini me spin off don't fall category. I know most of the Retailers in my Metro area not one has anything good to say about these companies. There's more to life then money. Playing dirty legal or not is not good. There is no excuse for the actions of personally witnessed from these companies. Screw modern reality. It much more beneficial to the hobby to have smaller companies with scruples supporting it. One benefit wargaming has over GW and hasbro.

Reminding folks of the high cost of computer gaming would be far more helpful to keeping wargaming alive then selling its soul to the Evil Empire.

Supergrover6868 wrote:

Regardless of the fanatic fan boy retaliation.

Uhm… pointing out that your blind generalizations about players of a particular game system are somehow blinded to the true path of righteous wargaming and incapable of independent thought is hardly fan boy retaliation.

The point is clear as crystal. It is not a gateway to wargaming. IT a gate to the GW system ONLY. IT does no translate in any way to bringing people in to the wargaming hobby regardless of how satisfied retailers are with the revenue stream from it.

Demonstrably untrue. I started playing WHFB, moved to FoW and now dabble in a variety of historical game systems. I've got a couple of DBA armies on my bench now, in fact, not to mention 28mm, 6mm and 3mm WW2. I've witnessed the same with numerous other (adult) players, many of whom would have loved to play historicals years ago, but couldn't find a game. Like me, they *wanted* something beyond fantasy or scifi, but were stuck. Now, with FoW, they've found an outlet for WW2, and with a sustainable base, are branching out. That may not be the case with every player, of course, but it certainly happens with a fair percentage of them in my experience. Then again, I'm not claiming to know the true minds of all gamers of any ilk.

You bring those kids a manual to any other wargaming and you get nothing but gripping about complexity and silly rambling about grumpy people.

Another sweeping generality. Sure, not every kid will latch on, any more than kids who have NO previous exposure will. But I'd be willing to bet that a lot more kids who have previous exposure to ANY other system are much more likely to jump into historicals. Where exactly do you think the new players come from? There's no one "true path" to achieving wargamer enlightenment. We all started somewhere, and will likely wind up somewhere else. The key is having an enjoyable experience those first few times out, and hopefully, not getting preached at too heavily about how our chosen set of rules is somehow going to twist our brains. Sheesh, you're making Reefer Madness sound rational.

In fairness if I had shell several hundred out just to START playing a game Id be stuck with it too.

You do realize some guys are playing FoW with 6mm and paper miniatures, right? You do realize that you can get started for under $200 USD for a tourney-sized army, and far less if you're willing to play smaller games, right? You do realize that FoW miniatures can be used with no problems with a large number of other WW2 rule systems, right? And that other 15mm lines and miniature scales can be used to play FoW, right? The FoW books are not printed with ink that binds one's soul inexorably to Battlefront products exclusively.

Yes, most will likely go the 15mm route, and most who enjoy it will spend a lot in the end. Just like players who enjoy playing ANY period. I know plenty of Nappy and Ancients players who've spent easily as much as I have. Spending a lot on an enjoyable hobby that, as you have pointed out (oddly) costs less than others is NOT a sign of addiction to any particular system or company.

Its immensely expensive.

Not compared to, say, oh I dunno, COMPUTERS? Golf? Pay-per-view movies? Compare gaming with ANY rule system to any other sport or hobby on an hourly basis, and it compares quite well. Every time I spent a buck on FoW for my kids, I counted myself lucky they weren't into extreme skiing or motocross racing as my brother was. By that measure, I'm still THOUSANDS ahead, just on medical bills.

The absurdity is calling it the savior that's the last thing it is.

I don't recall anybody honestly calling FoW a savior of any sort. It certainly has had an impact for some of us, leading to some fun, but that's about it. Maybe there are testimonials out there about FoW leading players from a life of crime, drugs and prostitution, but I've certainly missed them.

Its ruined it, its a fad and when it goes through the floor and it will, then its all back to square one.

Now you're contradicting yourself. If they are NOT "true" wargamers, how is it ruining wargaming? Or may be it IS wargaming, but just not your preferred flavor? And what exactly is/was "square one"? What is "ruined" if they weren't there to start with? That seems a bit like soccer fans worrying about football taking away from their "true" sport. (Insert local sport equivalents in case those two are the same in your area.)

FoW and Collectible miniatures games draw away from the hobby.

They also expose potential players who otherwise might be completely unaware of "the" hobby (whatever that is).

People interested in wargaming spend some time hearing whining about complexity then go straight to this mass marketed stuff.

I suspect most people tend to start with whatever they see first. So if the mass marketed stuff is it, then yes, it makes sense they'll start there. It's not as if young, impressionable kids are walking into stores asking for innocent historicals, but having the evil pushers lure them into impure pursuits. They likely have NO CLUE that such a thing exists. And if their first exposure is somebody railing about how the game they enjoy is rubbish, they're not exactly likely to embrace whatever that individual is preaching about.

They want some PC hybred. If you could make a computer moves the minis for them they buy that.

Computer games can be pretty darned excellent. That doesn't mean players can't do both. I had the pleasure of witnessing a Call of Duty 4 scenario played out with 28mm miniatures (Overgrown played at Havoc this year.) Not only are some of those gamers you seem to think are zombified by exposure to computer games actively playing miniatures, but they're translating those games into 3D playing fields.

But again, I don't understand why you're so intent on interweaving GW, FoW and computer games.

1. I dont see warhammer flying off the shelves anymore.

I sure see a lot of it ON shelves! Can we assume shopkeepers aren't keeping it there purely for nostalgia's sake? But again, so what? Somebody enjoying something I don't doesn't harm me in some way.

The Bee-gees still sell albums but the fad is over.

After 40-odd years, and with a #16 US/#6 UK showing in 2001, you have to acknowledge that they achieved and maintained a rather remarkable string of successes. Never my sort of thing, mind you! But despite their once over-whelming popularity, they don't seem to have destroyed their audiences forever. (Well, OK. Maybe some of 'em.)

2. the statement makes perfect sense. The fan boy emotion is clouding.

I play multiple historical systems, remember? The statement is absurd.

players play Fow it doesn't matter if they are tanks, they could be UFO's its just another outlet for the GW hobby.

Some players play WW2 Germans because they like swastikas. It takes all kinds. What's that got to do with the rules?

Same with Collectible miniatures. Star Wars, Superheroes, Battlech, one that had horror characters, Pokemon. Whatever. Its all the same format.

You have actually *seen* a FoW game, right? It's played with the same 15mm miniatures you can play a dozen similar WW2 games with. The books fall in the middle to high end of the price scale of other WW2 games. Other than the books, it's played with the SAME STUFF, basing and all with several other rule sets.

The Genre is secondary for them. Its a different hobby. What really boggles is its a hobby the requires such an large initial cost.

If you want a large force, well yeah. Sort of like having a bag full of golf clubs will cost you more, especially if you want a nice bag too. But you can certainly play with less.

340 USD for one US Infantry Army Box, 2nd ED Rule Book and Fortress Europa.

What makes you think that it can only be played with a list that size? There's a $45 USD starter set that includes a few tanks and a rule book. If that suits your fancy, sure, buy more. Hardly a high-risk proposition.

To Their Credit the consoldiated the "Codex" books seemingly.

Uhm… well, yes and no to that, actually. But as I wrote earlier, you certainly don't need to buy every book!

Oh yeah the paint and glue and time to construct. Add that all to the Cost.

That is unique to FoW how?

IT blows my mind how much people are willing to play for "Simplicity."

It blows my mind how much I've been willing to pay (and play, for that matter) for little metal toys. But I do enjoy it so.

Nope not at all. Please re-read my post devoid of fanboy rage.:P

Then why do you keep veering off on discussions about computer prices mid-stream?

Yep GW and its mini me spin off don't fall category.

I assume you meant to write "don't fall into this" category. I have no idea. And I certainly don't know that the manufacturers of any product I buy are great humanitarians.

I know most of the Retailers in my Metro area not one has anything good to say about these companies. There's more to life then money. Playing dirty legal or not is not good.

I certainly don't attribute any moral authority to retailers either! I've seen them be just as crass and cynical as any wall street banker. But then again, they too are making a living in these difficult times, so who am I to criticize? It beats having them live off the state.

There use for the actions of personally witnessed from these companies.

Do tell! What have you witnessed? Have they suppressed tales of baby burnings and book eating? What horrors have you witnessed?

Screw modern reality.

It is certainly out to screw us!

It much more beneficial to the hobby to have smaller companies with scruples supporting it. One benefit wargaming has over GW and hasbro.

I suspect having paying customers is the most beneficial factor to the companies. Having players benefits the hobby. Those two things often go hand-in-hand.

Reminding folks of the high cost of computer gaming would be far more helpful to keeping wargaming alive then selling its soul to the Evil Empire.

I can't even begin to imagine how you think that makes sense. Talking about the high price of computer gaming (which has actually gotten cheaper since I bought my first computer in 1982) is better than wargamers selling their souls? What???

Again, I would really appreciate it if you would offer up some definition of what you think "true" wargaming is.

- Bob

Computer gaming is vastly expensive. If you have unlimited pockets good for you. Its not the norm. Trying to deter the ever present "PC's are killing wargaming makes perfect sense, your simply just blinded by fan boy mentality.

IT does pull people away. It will continue to. The idea that as long as people play Fow historical gaming is nonsense. It will not become the end all be all of "wargames." Fan boys seem intent on trying to make this elaborate marketing ploy of a game the standard in world war two gaming. The Evil Empire as assimilated you. Every FoW player is a loss to the Traditional Wargames Industry.

Wargaming is a separate hobby from GW type system. More going to FoW means more leaving Traditional wargaming, or not choosing the Traditional Wargaming hobby usually because of the "complexity" boogeyman. Another specter is PC's. Both have an illusion less cost and of simplicity.

I tire of any statement called a generalization. Its a cheap dodge. Its not legitimate to me. I don't believe for a second regardless of how many retailers are cheering the revenue that this game helps. The more its successful the more it hurts traditional wargaming.

What wargaming is not is a GW marketing scheme. War themed games are not wargames. FoW is a translation of warhammer to a war themed game. The translation would work if it was War of the worlds. IT still be the GW hobby not wargaming. Dice and miniatures don't make a wargame.

Axis and Allies miniatures and Boardgames are other examples of war themed games.

Every FoW player is a loss to the Traditional Wargames Industry.

That's absurd.

I've played traditional wargames since the late 70's, both hex-and-counter and miniatures based. I still do. I also play FoW.

It certainly isn't a "zero sum" situation.

Supergrover6868 wrote:

Computer gaming is vastly expensive. If you have unlimited pockets good for you.

Again, what on earth does that have to do with FoW? FoW is not played on a computer. (It's also not true, but that's not pertinent to this thread.)

Its not the norm. Trying to deter the ever present "PC's are killing wargaming makes perfect sense, your simply just blinded by fan boy mentality.

You just wrote that deterring what you're saying makes perfect sense. Read it.

IT does pull people away. It will continue to.

Computer games or FoW? Assuming you mean FoW, if they never were into other games to start with, how can it pull them away? You seem to be implying that FoW is sucking players away from other games, but that would require larger numbers playing those other games than FoW in the first place, wouldn't it? Or is it just possible that FoW is attracting new players who might not otherwise play AT ALL? (And who, by extension, might therefore ADD to the ranks of "true" wargamers?)

The idea that as long as people play Fow historical gaming is nonsense.

What is that supposed to mean? You seem to be missing more than just a comma in that sentence.

It will not become the end all be all of "wargames."

Not universally, no. Who ever said it would? Perhaps for some players. Then again, some people like crossword puzzles. How is that a problem?

Fan boys seem intent on trying to make this elaborate marketing ploy of a game the standard in world war two gaming. The Evil Empire as assimilated you. Every FoW player is a loss to the Traditional Wargames Industry.

Again (and again and again), demonstrably untrue. I started playing FoW, and have now spent a tidy sum of money on the "Traditional" wargames industry's products. Unless, of course, you're going to define "traditional" with the same ambiguous avoidance you're using to define "wargaming". No Evil Empire owns my soul any more than any political party that takes me for granted. My free will does not end when I make a purchase, nor when I play a game.

Wargaming is a separate hobby from GW type system.

How so exactly? Different rule mechanics? What is your criteria?

More going to FoW means more leaving Traditional wargaming, or not choosing the Traditional Wargaming hobby usually because of the "complexity" boogeyman.

You certainly seem to have a low opinion of wargamers. Why do you think that playing any particular set of rules is going to have a detrimental and long-term effect on a player. If the rules are ENJOYABLE, they might play them, sure. But probably not exclusively, nor forever if they're already into historicals. And I'm still trying to puzzle out what exactly you think wargaming is. Or put it this way: What makes FoW (the game, not Battlefront, the company) "not a wargame"? The dice mechanics? The system of movement? Would the identical set of rules published by a mom & pop outfit donating all of their proceeds to charity be *more* of a wargame, somehow?

Another specter is PC's. Both have an illusion less cost and of simplicity.

You seem to be able to afford a computer and yet, somehow, still spare some funds for wargaming. However do you manage?

You can get some pretty smokin' computers for $500 USD these days, and a typical game is about $50. USD I see a lot of players with much more than that in their bags at the game shops, not even counting the "true" cost of glue and paint that you highlighted. So what? It's a hobby. It's not as if removing computers from the face of the earth would turn every PC gamer into a wargamer. Some, sure. But vast majority of people on this planet weren't wargamers before the advent of home computers.

Finally, please explain to me how my box of 15mm FoW WW2 miniatures is somehow orders of magnitude more expensive than that same bag of 15mm WW2 miniatures when I pull it out to play whatever your preferred set of rules is? (Don't say the books. I've spent a tidy sum on Command Decision books, thanks.)

I tire of any statement called a generalization.

That is quite an amusing statement, actually. :) Kudos if you meant it that way!

Its a cheap dodge. Its not legitimate to me.

What, having it pointed out that you're making a lot of assumptions about large groups of people you've never met based on rather tenuous extrapolations? A bit like saying "all people who wear blue are idiots (or geniuses)", isn't it?

I don't believe for a second regardless of how many retailers are cheering the revenue that this game helps.

No, but the point was that it is still popular after many, many years. You know, the whole Bee Gees thing. Do you remember that bit? It was a couple of posts up.

The more its successful the more it hurts traditional wargaming.

Not so. It exposes more people TO traditional wargaming (remember, this is the game that ISN'T played on a computer) and brings in new players, myself included.

What wargaming is not is a GW marketing scheme. War themed games are not wargames.

Ah, you're defining it by what it's NOT? Wargames are certainly war themed games. So this must mean that wargames are a subset of war themed games, right?

FoW is a translation of warhammer to a war themed game.

Sharing some characteristics, but differing in others. It has, however, a historical basis, putting it squarely in the "historical war" camp.

The translation would work if it was War of the worlds. IT still be the GW hobby not wargaming. Dice and miniatures don't make a wargame.

What does then? A historical war theme? (check) Reflection of the varying effectiveness of differing strategies, equipment and weaponry? (check) What IS a wargame then?

Axis and Allies miniatures and Boardgames are other examples of war themed games.

Ah, so board games are NOT wargames? You're certain of this? Somebody please go tell all the ASL guys that they're not playing "real" wargames!

These guys seem to think you can play wargames… on computers!

dbaol.com

Tell you what: Wikipedia provides a rather lengthy explanation of what a wargame is, which, while not perfect, is close enough for my purposes:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wargame

If you have a reference to a different definition, please point it out. In the meantime, explain to me how FoW doesn't fit that definition.

If your entire point is that, in response to the original post, you think that FoW has had a negative impact overall, fine. That's your opinion. But you certainly made some other assertions along the way that have me wondering what you really mean.

- Bob

I've had no problems getting FoW player sinterested in other WW2 systems like IABSM.

I've also had them interested in ancients gaming and even now ECW.

Hence the allegation that FoW isn't a gateway is simply an elitist who isn't interested in youngsters coming into the hobby.

Me? i'd rather have the hobby outlive me and see people having fun.

Some here think that making a decent living out of wargaming is somehow heretical. FoW produce a good product, and support it. I'll note I like it as it suports info for all the combatants of WW2.

For at least one US system the initial release failed to include the British….

FoW may not be completely historial, but it acknowledges that millions of people other than the US, Germans and Soviets took part in the war, and that their armies are equally worthy of study.

FoW is historical wargaming. To deny that is patently obtuse. It may not be your cup of tea, fine, no problems with that.

But as I've said my town of 20K inhabitants has around 30-50 people playing historical wargames thanks to Fow and an enthsiastic FLGs.

How does that compare to your home town?

Bangorstu wrote:

[…] How does that compare to your home town?

I can honestly say that FoW has been the catalyst for the formation of a gaming community that spans four (maybe more) states and has roughly 100 members. That's not to say that many of these same members didn't play historicals before, but only that FoW provided a common interest for them to find each other, and go on to carve out or form into at least 3 other sustainable groups.

Surprisingly, to me at least, most of these guys are not kids. My boys were among the youngest, although there are some younger teenagers in the ranks now. Most are adult professionals, and most seem to have families of their own. I am relieved that there are other guys nearly my age as well, so I'm not the only "old guy" wandering around. Some have moved away from FoW for good, and others will only play it. Most seem to dabble in SciFi and/or Fantasy gaming as well, while others combine it (e.g. Orc's Drift, with the 1880's English facing Orcish hordes, allowing the fantasy and historical guys to get together occasionally).

I've met dozens of these guys face-to-face only because we all met for different FoW events in recent years. From there, I've been invited to (and gladly attended) a half dozen events where other mostly-historical rules were played (IABSM, TS&TF, Nuts, LoTOW, CD4, BKC and others). In addition to their own local gaming groups spread across at least 4 states, we've all formed an informal group based on playing FoW in the region (New England) to help us coordinate games and events. FoW is the one game that I could play regularly with all of them, if only I had the time.

So certainly in this area and in my experience, FoW has provided that tenuous connection that keeps this group in touch. I've been surprised when I show up at an event in Boston and spot one of the guys from Hartford is at the table when I walk up. I"ve gamed with 6 groups across 4 states, and visited 10 others in another 6 states where I could have dropped in for a game, if only I'd had my miniatures and the time. The ONLY thing these disparate groups and shops have had in common has been FoW. And I've got another 17 pins in my map locating groups that I've read about here on TMP that also play that I hope to visit if ever in their areas. (My pin map is at link if anybody's interested. Please provide suggestions!).

At many of these locations, I've had great conversations with guys that are also into other historical games, and I've certainly made a lot of impulse purchases at their shops, contributing to another shelf of WW2 historical rule sets alone. But I would have never done that had I not played those first games of WHFB with my boys all those *sniff* years ago, and eventually seen a FoW manual on the shelf back in 2003.

I suppose one could argue that FoW (and now board wargames!) isn't historical wargaming in the sense that some Ford fanatics don't consider Chevy's "real" trucks, or that a Harley Die Hard might not consider a Honda street bike a "real" motorcycle, but the vast majority of the population will simply smile condescendingly at those sorts and not bother to argue.

I do hope FoW eventually does expand to include the Pacific and early war periods, but they're doing a decent job with the periods they've focused on so far. Meanwhile, there is plenty of fan-contributed material for anybody wishing to explore those periods, and apparently no shortage of willing opponents. I think that's good for "the hobby" overall. It's certainly good for a fun afternoon.

- Bob

Where do you play? I need to put a pin in my map. I never know where exactly I'll be working, so I like to keep my "bucket list" well populated.

- Bob

This is a really strange argument coming from a guy who has Scifi and toygaming in his zones of interest.

This is amusing. We all seem to be interested in Toy Gaming. :)

- Bob

Nonthing is an assumption. To go round and round with that is a waste. of time.

It detracts from Wargaming.. It's not a gateway to the hobby at all. Once you sink the fortune into that hobby thats the only thing for most. Many don't have unlimited funds. FoW will never be a replacement for wargamaming. It will only bleed potential players from it. Fan boys insist it should or is going to be some revolutionary system that will become a standard. It wont happen. There are far to many dead set against for good reason. Writing little fluff diddys about the war doesn't make it any more then the war themed GW game it is.

Not optional if you want to know the special rules your opponent will be using.

The rules are just not complete unless you own most of the supplements.

And this is another reason why denying the its a GW marketing game is just silly. Especially with its own version of White Dwarf. With all the goofy special rules if you don't know the rules of your opponent as well as your own you will have surprises and rules issues for sure. Just like Warhammer. These rules are produced with nothing in mind other then profit.

Supergrover8686 wrote:

Nonthing is an assumption. To go round and round with that is a waste. of time.

And yet you persist. Odd, isn't it?

It detracts from Wargaming.

It *is* wargaming, at least by any definition available. If you have another definition, then by all means, please share it. I'm sure the board wargamers would also be interested in seeing it since you've deemed them not-true wargamers.

It's not a gateway to the hobby at all.

Except for the dozens of first-hand experiences that have been related in this thread alone, you mean? If it is, it is, whether you like it or not.

Once you sink the fortune into that hobby thats the only thing for most. Many don't have unlimited funds.

You mean the $45 USD to get started? Or the larger sums most of us sink into this hobby anyhow? Again, how is the money I spend on miniatures used for FoW any different than the money I spent on those same miniatures used to play another rule set?

FoW will never be a replacement for wargamaming.

Uhm… well no, it wouldn't replace something it already is now, would it? Another book on the shelf doesn't replace those already on the shelf. Or didn't you know that? Have you been throwing out all your books when you buy a new one?

It will only bleed potential players from it.

It being what it is already? Again, in this thread alone, easily dozens of first-hand examples indicate the exact opposite.

Fan boys insist it should or is going to be some revolutionary system that will become a standard.

More like realizing it's popular, and one of many sets of rules covering the period. FoW isn't even my favorite set of rules, but it is the set that I play most often. The mechanics work and provide a good game. It's not going to stop world hunger anytime soon. Then again, I've yet to see a set of game rules that will. It's a hobby.

It wont happen. There are far to many dead set against for good reason.

What, are you going to form armed gangs and PREVENT people from choosing to play? Like the saying goes: "People in Hell want icewater."

Writing little fluff diddys about the war doesn't make it any more then the war themed GW game it is.

As opposed to all those so-serious games that involve pushing little toy men around? Please enlighten us! What are the TRUE, SERIOUS, really IMPORTANT wargames? Can you even define what you consider to be a TRUE wargame? Will you? Please?

The fluff doesn't impact the rules. You can play the game without having read any of it. The mechanics work regardless of the fluff. FoW isn't perfect, but it certainly lets a lot of people get together and play a game that involves a period of history they're interested in. They have a good time doing it. That IS why they are called warGAMES after all.

Grover, if you can't cough up any sort of definition of what you consider true wargaming, then you can't expect anybody to take your objections too seriously. If you don't like the game, fine. But to slight those of us who like a game because you don't dig the rules, players or company is a bit much.

As for the whole "GW-like business model", that is an aspect of the company, not the players or the rules. Sure, they sell multiple books. So do lots of companies. FoW is not the most expensive rulebook I've bought, either.

Your point about "requiring" all the rules is baseless. You do NOT need to own any more than the basic rulebook, and the book for the force you intend to field, or one of the many free PDFs provided by Battlefront. It is NICE to own the other books, but it is entirely, 100% OPTIONAL. If you're not a powergamer, there is no need to know every rule variation out there. Look in the index at what your opponent has, and just ask them before your game if you really care. Or don't sweat it and just play. It's a game, after all.

But thanks for not mentioning computers this time.

- Bob

It being what it is already? Again, in this thread alone, easily dozens of first-hand examples indicate the exact opposite.

Really don't care about the anecdotes. Doesn't change a thing.

What, are you going to form armed gangs and PREVENT people from choosing to play

As opposed to touting as the obvious new standard in wargaming and attack all that dont follow the cult of GW? Its sooo far beyond "realizing its popular".

Thankfully its died around here. Ironically partially due to a wonderful GW practice of undercutting there own Retailer accounts by opening there own Retail Store in the area. The sucked all the Warhammer players back to warhammer and left the very few Wargamers stuck with hundreds of dollars of unusable FoW to sell off.

I see you still insist on frothing retorts about the computer without even attempting to comprehend the idea behind it. Bottom line is nobody will ever change there mind on FoW by the rants of Fan Boys. These kind of fanatic tirades are just another good reason to stay away from the whole GW cult.

Hey, Kyoteblue – I've added a pin for Game HQ to my map. Not sure if I'll be out near OKC anytime, but I've got the address just in case.

Someday, I'll have to pack up an RV and do a cross-country wargaming road trip!

- Bob

Supergrover6868 wrote:

Really don't care about the anecdotes. Doesn't change a thing.

Well, don't let the facts stand in the way of a good opinion then!

As opposed to touting as the obvious new standard in wargaming and attack all that dont follow the cult of GW? Its sooo far beyond "realizing its popular".

Who has attacked anybody? Enjoying something isn't an attack on everything else. Several on this thread have responded that FoW has had a positive impact, others indicate a negative impact. That's not an attack.

Thankfully its died around here. Ironically partially due to a wonderful GW practice of undercutting there own Retailer accounts by opening there own Retail Store in the area. The sucked all the Warhammer players back to warhammer and left the very few Wargamers stuck with hundreds of dollars of unusable FoW to sell off.

So you're celebrating the death of historical gaming in your area because GW moved in… because FoW died with it? That's a bit of cutting of your nose to spite your face, isn't it?

I see you still insist on frothing retorts about the computer without even attempting to comprehend the idea behind it.

Frothing. Heh. This is fun. You keep interjecting the costs of computers as if they relate to FoW in some way. If you can relate those two, please do!

Bottom line is nobody will ever change there mind on FoW by the rants of Fan Boys.

Nor vice-versa, certainly.

These kind of fanatic tirades are just another good reason to stay away from the whole GW cult.

Yes, but why do you keep posting them then?

- Bob

Just for you Derek…
"Saying all of this Chris and I were just talking a few days ago about how it would be nice to have a summary of special rules from all the books in one place so that you could just pirnt out the German pdf and see at a glance what the 21st Panzer, 352nd, or whoever has got that is not in FE. We will do this for the Normandy books first and then move onto to the Bagration ones. You should see the first of these fairly soon and it will include all the basic German rules from FE with the special rules for each division also shown so if you want to find out what the Germans can do or need a reminder from time to time for your own army this will be the ideal crib sheet. We will do the allied ones next as we figured we might as well start with the big one first and if that looks good then the rest will follow shortly afterwards."

That was posted by John-Paul here link

So while you can currently get just about every special rule from the website, albeit with some searching, you'll be able to get files listing them 'soon'.

That's good news, Sturmgrenadier. Battlefront and the FoW community seem to be doing a nice job coming up with some very useful reference material to support the game.

That should quell some of the baseless complaints as well.

- Bob

So Grover where are you?? All the Ex FOW players could sell their stuff on TMP make some money back and buy what ever they want to get into now….Win Win for every one.
Hey Bob that sounds like a great idea travel the US in an RV gaming !!!!!

yeah its really that simple.

That should quell some of the baseless complaints as well.

Noe of themn wree baseless they were all very valid. And the linsk were there to back them. !st edition rules had the same issues and there was plenty of complaints. Fan boy fanatics aside. Its still GW and the common hassles apply.

Again (and again and again), demonstrably untrue.

WRONG playing this war themed game characticure of a "wargme" is not a savior to the industry its a destroyer of it. Doesn't matter at all whos playing it where whatsoever. The more popular the more destructive.

You fanatic "ambassadorship" of FoW is as much a turn off as anything. Its this kind of frothing at the mouth Fan Boy that would make any GW game not worth playinng even if it was a good system.

1st I do NOT play FOW.Sold my stuff off after about six games.Didn't like the rules or the scale.
Anyway,supergroover,what makes FOW and all the GW games not wargaming?For the umpteenth time will you please define what YOU think real wargaming is? What do you play that is your "Traditional Wargaming"?C'mon, no more ranting tell us what is real wargaming, you can do it.You really need to ,cause your last post sounds like insane ranting.

So Supergrover why are you posting on this topic, other than to Rant on about the business models of GW & FOW? The OP simply asks what Impact + or – FOW has had in your area.

For me it has had zero impact here in PR I can't even find anyone who is interested in wargaming much less FOW. :(

Still trying to understand why Fow = GW.

When they upgraded their rules, they gave a free upgrade to people with 1st edition.

They publish a lot of free stuff on the net.

Their supplements are reasonably priced.

Their figures aren't any more expennive than any others on the market.

Calling FoW a GW style enterprise is someone lazily mistaking god marketing for gouging the consumer.

And I get the impression a lot of the critque of FoW is simply because some grumpy sods simply don't like teenagers.

I'll repeat, how is getting people palying with hisotrical minaitures bad for the hobby?

Bangorstu
They do have the same basic style in that they have a product that is totally complete.In other words they sell the rules,lists and figures for their game and have a core ruleset and army books,much like GW, and they are very "glossy" in their advertising.All that is a good thing and smart business.
As I said in my previous post I didn't like the scale or rules but I still use the army list for 28mm WW2 based of of the Great War rules.
After that I'm not sure what else they really have in common. Ask superranter.
Pete

Soldat, you've got my sympathies re: finding an opponent. I had to wait 20+ years to finally scratch my WW2 gaming itch with FoW!

- Bob

There's definitely a perception that the games play alot alike, and you'll see players coming to FoW from other games spending a lot of time trying to build that "perfect" powergamer list, only to realize that it can't be done. I guess to those guys, it is a bottomless pit. They're trying to achieve something the game isn't meant to provide.

[Full disclosure: My knowledge of GW games is limited to playing WHFB years ago.]

Meanwhile, one of the best players in this area is a family guy with a most decidedly non-power army (Italian infantry) that he plays very well. He's taking that list to Nationals this year, more for the variety than in any hopes of beating all comers. I suspect he'll be a surprise for a lot of the powergamers out there. He's also an accomplished Nappys player, and we dabble in other games.

- Bob