"Flames of War: Impact" Topic

might i inquire?

how much has Flames of War either boosted the present historical gaming, gaming in general, or has it invaded your former sanctum of smaller-games in your area??
(area= state/country/doesn't matter)

thought i'd ask.

for me, i live in a gaming abyss. fools who play magic/DnD/WH40K alone think they are hardcore.

i dragged some local players into a Legend of the Five rings game (tatcical RPG) recently and showed them what it was like outside the box, but it is nothing compared to the enthusiasm of 2 local men who have played FoW, loved it, and want to promote it like it's the cure for cancer (of the brain, mayhaps?)

so, in my neck of the woods, Flames of War is a champion of diversity, a newcoming contender.

I live in a small town of around 15,000 people, half of whom are students, in the middle of nowhere.

The Warhammer crowd of the university wargames club got into FoW. They loved it.

One of them started up a FLGS, and spent a lot of time spreading the word amongst the youth of the area – including starting up a Saturday club for gamers.

So now we've got around 30 historical gamers where 5 years ago we had 3-4. And an additional club of school age kids.

And a FLGS which sells FoW.

All this in a tiny town in North Wales most people haven't heard of.

So here at least, FoW has done wonders for the hobby.

No impact here. Not in the slightest. Never played it, don't know anyone who plays it. Never seen any of its products with me own eyes.

It will have to buy me dinner, then take me to a club and get me drunk if it wants to invade my sanctum.

All this in a tiny town in North Wales most people haven't heard of

Can you let me know where the shop is? Anywhere near Ruthin?

In one direction (Vegas): 150+ miles to the nearest shop.

In the other direction (LA basin): 100+ miles to a decent hobby shop (Pasadena, Anaheim, etc.)

The only impact here is as another source of WWII 15mm miniatures: some worth it, some not. I have and am familiar with the rules and supplements, just in case, but don't anticipate having to give them a hard workout.

Couldn't even convince a Hobbytown (30 miles away) to stock it.

Ruined it around here Milwaukee WI. So many 40K kids got into playing it that it ran off actual Historical wargamers. Now its just 40K with Panzers and even FoW is dying out. That stuff has such a high initial cost and recurring payment to get all the different books its surely not worth it to the wargamers I know. I tried the "if you cant beat em join em" tactic with both 40K in Milwaukee and FoW down in Chicagoland at Games Plus, both experience were rife with rude fan boys and equally rude Shop owners. Between that and my Direct experience with GW and Battlefront,I am squarely in the they suck camp. Don't care about the debates over it. Battlefront is the GW marketing model and GW is evil.

On the bright side, a few of the old crowd from the 80's is making a come back with some new blood. The yoke of FoW tyranny is slowly lifting. Hopefully not to late. There be alot more if the constant gripes over rules stopped.

One FLGS in the area sells WH because that's what the kids buy and historical stuff for everyone else. One (not very) FLGS won't sell historical at all of any kind because according to the owner "no one's interested in that stuff".

What is a FLGS????

Friendly local game store.

In Germany ten years ago, WW2 gaming was very rare. Now it's more common, and my impression is mostly FOW. So it's made a difference there.

In northern VA, I would estimate FOW is a quarter to a third of the tables I see being gamed on.

I would equate FOW's impact as even a bit greater than Nap's Battles 15 yrs ago, in that NB converted many gamers to Napoleonics, but I don't think converted many non-gamers. And I think FOW has converted a lot more nongamers.

If it wasn't for FoW we wouldn't be carrying historical minis at all. We get a lot of guys coming in to buy the minis even if they don't play that particular game so, if nothing else, it's making it possible to do 15mm WWII gaming locally… even if you use somebody else's rules.

Most of the guys who are interested in FoW in our area would not be doing any historical gaming at all if it weren't for this game.

I would say that it's been a pretty positive force in our area for keeping historical gaming alive.

Real shame, When I lived in Outer Banks of N Carolina the only gaming choices were 40K or FoW. Not a choice for me at all. After hauling down decades worth of Good gaming minis and other accessories I was supposed to plop down several hundred bucks to buy, build, and paint all new minis then buy book after book to play? No thanks. Cam back Milwaukee and Chicago only to see Axis and Allies, Memoir 44, and Fow had replaced historical gaming adults with younger collectible minded players. Bummer. Its never been the PC that killed this hobby its been the overblown complexity gripes that have done it.

In my neck of the woods, FoW brought over a lot of GW uber-gamers to WW2 gaming – everyone wanted all the best gear and with a win-at-all-costs attitude. It got to the point that it ruined FoW. We turned away from FoW and now use Rules of Engagement for our WW2 battles.

We still have that mentality here as well Paul. I dislike the way the system has been turned into another tournament junkies game, mostly it appears from ex GW players. These individuals will say to your face before the game…..

"Oh, you are playimng that combination, I can beat that by turn two!"

Sad indviduals, sitting around all day, face in army book (Codex) number crunching their way to victory. They give nerds a bad name they do.

People seem to be getting mixed up between the rules and the people that play the rules. The types of negative personalities described above come with wargaming; the rules lawyer, the win at all cost guys, the tournament players, or the ones who only buy Tigers. I started wargaming in the late 1970s and was playing Angriff (WW2) and WRG WW2 in the early 1980s; plenty of guys put Tiger armies on the table even then.

As for the club I belonged to in the UK, FoW was the first historical game a few of the guys played -- it brought them into the historical gaming fold. And they were decent guys who'd be fun to play using any rules set.

Heck, here in Germany the local games shop even sells FoW and their related miniatures -- not a lot, but the fact they sell them at all is amazing.

I believe FoW has helped the WW2 miniatures and historical field overall.

But in the end all any of us can offer is opinion and anecdotes.

Round here I can't think of the last time I saw a FOW game at the club. Plenty of us have Battlefront figs & vehicles though.

Ermintrude – the shop is called Acme Games as is in the High Street in Bangor, about a hours' drive from Ruthin.

It stocks a few Warlord bits n bobs, a lot of GW, FoW, RPGs and boardgames. And Alex the owner will order stuff in.

It's at the Cathedral end of the High Street, on a 2nd floor so you need to climb some stairs to get to it. It usually has a board on the street so you can find it. If you can find the Castle Bakery you're close….

If 14yo play anything, you'll get uber-gaming because that's what 14yo are like. But in my experience if the hobby isn't to die, we need things like FoW to get people playing historical games.

Once they're through the door, we can show them other periods and rules. But you have to get them through the door.

Or, the hobby can get greyer and die.

That sounds stark, but nothing has got the kids playing historicals and on that basis along, FoW is a Good Thing.

I have seen one game played at my club since it came out. that is one game in the last six odd years with about 10-12 miniature games plus every night. Lots and lots of FOW kit has been bought and used for 15mm, both before and after FOW released as a game.

Our venue is licenced so we do not have under 18's generally and we are all old crusty grognards, if you ignore the student element, the military element and the under 18 element brought by their parents

If anyone had told me 4 years ago that I would be gaming WWII, AND painting it, I would have told them they were nuts.
Our group is mostly middle aged, and are almost exclusively historical players.
Four of us play FoW every other Sunday. In the rest of the group, there are a few painting up an army or two for Club FoW games that come around about every other month.

It has not brought in a flood of new players. It has not replaced anything, nor has it driven anyone away.
For us. it is NOTHING BUT another era to play in, and a fun set of rules that no one has any "realistic" illusions about.
We still play our AWI games, our SYW games, Our Civil war games, our Sword and the Flame games, our GASLIGHT games, our Napoleonic games, etc.

Ironically, the main driving force behind getting us involved in FoW is way too busy to play often, being a college professor and a new Dad. Thanks, Paul!

Here in San Antonio, FoW seems to be a "gateway game" to historical gaming. The main historical group here plays FoW as the major game, and other historical games as one-off occurrences, but it's FoW that brings in new people.

Before FoW, there was almost NO historical minis at all in my area of NC. I bought everything mail order. Now three of the five game stores in town all carry Battlefront miniatures. There are a good many people playing the game, too. Many of the guys who were big into the game had only played GW games (and none of these were young, or uber gamers). Now they all play WW II, even if they aren't big into reading all the history. But to me the important thing is the availability of the models. I am far more likely to buy more if it is there rather than something I have to order on line.

I think FOW made a significant impact but . . .

It's kinda like certain Adult TV. It lacks penetration.

I am impressed with the number of local folks that have FOW stuff that 1) never paint it up; or 2) have a nice painted army and never or very seldom play -- mostly because they don't like the rules -- plus they refuse to play other rules because they have been burned once and refuse to see now other rules would be any better.

I would venture, on average, the 'average' FOW player in my area plays a game every two years (some might play every three months and others every 5 years -- and there's a lot of these).

Well either way the manufacturer turns a buck don't they?

mjc

Stu- as long as it dies after I do…

Around here FOW has had a big impact in getting players into WW2, less so in getting them into historicals. 20-30% of players come from a GW background while the rest are mostly from DBx etc. FOW appeared just as ancients split between DBM3.1, DBMM (and later FoG) so there was a lot of historical gamers ready to try something new. Existing WW2 players using other rules and scales don't seem to have moved across to FOW.

Hey Kyoteblue what's happening in OK Cty these days? I spent 2 weeks there 10 yrs ago on a course at the FAA Uni at he Airport & met Monty Walls & a bunch of other DBM-ers…are any of them still around? Is there a pvt msg thing on here??!!

Oh…and FOW – lots of new blood & a few fantasy types have used it to graduate to (semi-)historical. A few older established types play it too & quiet a few people who were bored with other rule sets have taken it up.

But there's also a bit of a backlash from people who have found it shallow, etc …..usually they have found somethign that suits them better tho, so it's pretty much all good.

Eek..I dont' remember you sorry – & I had a pony tail at the time too! :/

Still it's good that ppl are still playing something & pls pass on my best wishes from the long haired Kiwi from 1999 – I especially remember some good beer, a chap of Irish descent who's favourite toast was none-to-compimentary to the Queen, a couple of hours at the rifle range & a tour of concrete pads that had been houses before eth tornadoes of that year or shortly before!

People seem to be getting mixed up between the rules and the people that play the rules. The types of negative personalities described above come with wargaming; the rules lawyer, the win at all cost guys, the tournament players, or the ones who only buy Tigers.

But they are particularly attracted to games designed for tournament play and which use points systems.

Games like FoW.

FoW converted most of our 40K/WHFB players to WWII. Now they're starting to get interested in FoG and other WWII rulesets. It also got me into WWII, as I had some people to play with! So, all in all a good thing.

"People seem to be getting mixed up between the rules and the people that play the rules."

A question about FOW's impact was asked, I answered what impact it has had in my area – uber-gamers who like to have all the good stuff and play a win-at-all-costs game. It may not be what FOW intended, but its the impact FOW has had where I live.

I would also like to add that FOW has not improved gamers' WW2 knowledge. Whereas ancients knowledge has increased in gamers courtesy of WAB/FOG.

I would also like to add that FOW has not improved gamers' WW2 knowledge.

Careful study of the FoW sourcebooks yields many fascinating facts about WWII.

For example did you know that Americans all move faster than everyone else and that the Māori always did a Haka before launching an attack.

I could go on, but I won't.

And the Battlefront bashing continues.

*sigh*

Flames of War does pretty well in the local group: Every monday night is FoW at the FLGS, and they're currently running a mini-tournament to see who gets the store's copy of River of Heroes. There's one guy who's not really fun to play against, but everyone else is a blast.

What I like about Flames is the level of detail: If I'm supposed to be a company commander, all I care about is does that tank move (in rules, did it bog down), or is it a burning wreck? The 'bailed out' mechanic isn't bad, and the assaults are absolutely decisive.

Why would I care that the 2pdr hit the Tiger at a place where there's a 10% chance there's a weak spot, (less than a 0.1% total chance of affecting the tank)? One chance in a thousand or less is not something I particularly want to crunch the numbers for.

Why would I care that the 2pdr hit the Tiger at a place where there's a 10% chance there's a weak spot, (less than a 0.1% total chance of affecting the tank)? One chance in a thousand or less is not something I particularly want to crunch the numbers for.

So the FoW fans continue to put up straw men.

I don't see the FoW fans as needing to put up straw men. It looks like they're all busy having fun and playing mini's.

FoW isn't my cup of tea, but if other players are enjoying it, they can knock themselves out and play to their hearts content.

So the rules are simplistic. So what?

"Careful study of the FoW sourcebooks yields many fascinating facts about WWII.

For example did you know that Americans all move faster than everyone else and that the Māori always did a Haka before launching an attack. "

Now that's just picking at hairs. I think the point the gentleman you were addressing your rebuttal at was trying to make the point that, without FoW, some of the gamers who moved from GW games, just as an example, wouldn't know the difference between a Panzer III and a Panzer IV, or even that there is any noticeable difference at all.

It stretches to give each army some individuality, but it's unrealistic to complain about the fact that the rules work all the time.

I don't see the FoW fans as needing to put up straw men. It looks like they're all busy having fun and playing mini's.

They consistently put up the straw man of all other WWII games being complicated and obsessed with detail. Like Lion in the Stars did just up the page there.

In fact there's many sets of WWII rules pitched at about the same level of complication as FoW.

Name 3.

I tired to get the guys I game with to switch to BKC. one has and we built some forced and enjoy it more. Another got the rules but didnt like them, honestly, its lack of cheese and a game built a bit more on skill not army that turned him off.

Id rather play BKC, but have gone back to FOW so I can play WWII.

Bangorstu wrote.

Name 3.

PBI2, Blitzkreig Commmander, I Ain't Been Shot Mum.

IMHO all better games and all playable without buying umpteen supplements.

Crossfire, Battlegroup Panzergrenadier, Troops Weapons & Tactice.

Ditto.

Metalstorm ww2 is another at company level although it is less complicated than fow. they are the best 'simple' rules Ive played.

Kyoto – no, I missed Twistercon

As for increasing historical awareness – I put FoW at exactly the same level as FoG – none is required to play the game (which applies to pretty much every wargame really!), but people who get interested in the era will go look for it sooner or later.

IMO there's basiacally 2 types of wargamers with historical knowledge – those who had it and got into wargaming because ofit, and those who got it because they got interested in it because of wargaming.

Both are great – but nethier is actually necessary & I see no reason to beat up ppl who aren't into the history & just like the game.

Derek H – erm….

Crossfire is a nice simple game, i grant you, and I enjoyed the game of IABSM I played.

But IABSM has plenty of supplements….. OK, mainly scenario books but then the FOG books are mainly scenarios and army lists as well.

I'll point out though that the chances of a kid wandering into a store and finding a copy of Crossfire on a shop shelf and being enthralled by it are zero. Certainly compared to FoW.

If you don't like FoW, fine. But that it has had a positive impact on the hobby is undeniable – unless that it you are an elitist who doesn't like new blood coming into wargaming.

you dont need any IABSM supplements to play it as they are all scenario books! So "mainly" as in all……

In fact, i would say there are probably as many fow players buy those supplements for the scenarios.

I think Richard should do a little " how to convert to fow" document

They dont contain army lists. those lists if you want them are free from the website. you need the fow supplements to play your army….and a few others to see what your opponent can do with his.

FoW has had a big impact in our local club (WAR Reading UK), it is not unusual to have half a dozen games playing on a night, certainly my friends and I considerit our favourite game at the moment.

We tried BKC and did not like it.
We tried AT-43 and did like it, i like it a lot, but the others prefer more historical.
We tried FoG and did like it, others liked it more than me, I don't like the way it handles missile troops, but it is a good game, especially for the classical greek/rome period.

We have a few competition players in the club, but plenty like my friends and I who have no interest in competition games. We find the game quite well balanced, most of the armies i see fielded are quite a fair balance of inf / tanks / artillery etc.

I would recommend FoW as a good fun game that benefits from being a "Historical" game if you are interested in WW2 rather than space marines. I guess the rules aren't the most complex in the world, but they seem to achieve the objective and tend to "feel right" most of the time.

Personally I would increase the rate of fire or effectiveness of towed anti tank guns but that is about it for me.

FoW is just a game, play it or don't it is your call, who cares what anyone else thinks?

Andy W

KevanG – well I certainly by IABSM scenario books for FOW and conversion really is a piece of cake.

For FOW you need precisely one supplement to play the game. The rest is just add-ons which are optional.

Still, heaven forfend a company produces a rules set and then continues to support it. If Foundry were this completist about ranges there would be more happy wargamers.

At the Manchester club we have a lot of FoW players and have had a few new faces turn up on the back of FoW. We have also had an influx of new players wanting to play FoG and even a the odd new player turning up to look to play DBMM.

Between the three sets of rules the clubs biggest problem at the moment is finding enough space to fit all the tables needed for games on a club night.

For FOW you need precisely one supplement to play the game. The rest is just add-ons which are optional.

Not optional if you want to know the special rules your opponent will be using.

The rules are just not complete unless you own most of the supplements.

Well to play my Finns against my opponents russians I've found all I need is Ostfront.

The rest is, as I said, chrome.

I tend to agree, as long as you have the rules book and the main army list for your period, Fortress Europe, Ostfront or Afrika, you really don't need any of the other publications unless you find the hobby interesting and just fancy collecting them.

I bought both the art of war miniature painting books and consider them both to be very good. But i did not need them.

One thing though – I don't actually think most of the models sold by battlefront are very good, hate their shermans and almost all the infantry are pretty poor. Much prefer Peter Pig though their problem is that their vehicle range is limited other than Germans!

Andy
PS Martin please make some cromwells, and churchills.

Like many ranges they can be patchy – their Pz IVFs are awful (guns badly cast making attachment difficult)and the instructions for the fiddlier stuff are badly printed making the sheet indescipherable.

Infantry can be good – depend son the sculptor. I think (touch wood) the age of the huge head and giraffe neck has paased, but my knowledge is limited to Germans and Finns.

Peter Pig panzer IV's are very good.
Battlefront Cromwells are pretty good, much better than their shermans

I began collecting FOW books and minis after our local gaming group had given up on divisional level WWII, despite having a large number of 15mm minis. But it never caught on -- just as several in the group had decided to start, word of the new edition came out and those of us who had started buying the myriad of books for the first edition (I had most of them), we decided to refuse to buy into the GW paradigm of changing editions and army books. So, after three of four years of no WWII, we decided to move from 15mm to 28mm. We picked up Disposable Heroes and the all of the army books (for not too much more than just the cost of the basic FOW 2ed rule book) and have been having fun with the rules and figures ever since!

So, for our local group, FOW got us out of 15mm WWII. Fortunately we got into 28mm WWII with DH&C7B and loving it.