"Wargaming the Sudan" Topic

After 20+ some odd years of wargaming I am just starting to find the appeal of Colonial Wargaming. Zulus have an appeal to me but I actually have found myself being drawn to the slightly more extravegant Fuzzy Wuzzies and Dervishes of the Sudan Campaign. I know little of this period other than the few major battles that took place.

I was wondering what people think is the best scale for gaming the 2 Sudan wars. Would these work better as small scale/ skirmish battles, or large scale engagements.

I'm completely open to gaming it from either angle (or somewhere in between). Let me know what you recommend and enjoy.

PS. I normally game 15mm but am planning to branch out into 28mm for these. I'd love to hear miniature suggestions as well.

Cheers.

I share you view that I find the Sudan so much more interesting than the zulu war.

I'd love to do the Sudan in 15/18mm but I don't really like any of the figures available in that scale. However the Perry 28mm are superb although they still desperately need some Ansar in Jibbeh added to the range. (Please, please please!)

I've gone with this range and the Sudan rules from TooFatLardies which are available in last year's Christmas special. I've only played a couple of games but they were great fun. First was on a 5' x 6' table and the area wasn't really large enough, the second game was on a 6' x 7' table and had enough space. I can well see the advantage of 15mm figures but as above there weren't any I liked enough.

Lots of people play this with Sword and Flame as skirmish but that wasn't what I wanted to do. Lardy rules are very flexible as to unit sizes and you can have wargames units as companies or regiments. I actually have mine representing two or four companies.

Other rules for bigger actions are Battles For Empire. Gilder and others used a set called Pony Wars with modifications.

There are other ranges of 28mm but thus far I'm very happy with the Perry figures and I hope they continue to expand the range. Bengal lancers anyone? You might want to pick up a few publications to inspire you.

Osprey – Khartoum
Battlegames issue 5 – has a good Sudan article
Wargames world specials 1-4 these detail Gilders collection, ideas and campaigns

I have small selection of books coming from Caliver including their campaign Guide the Blood Red Sand and a few more besides.

Great summary, Timmo. thanks for the tips.

Excellent info Timmo. Thank you.

Ahem, anyone familiar with "Science versus Pluck, or Too Much for the Mahdi"? Specific Sudan era rules with a strong role-playing element, and some of Pony Wars.

link

Originally came out in 1987, revised in 2006. Always listed when there is a TMP thread on 'favourite rules'.

I think it's sheer genius. But I would, wouldn't I?

Science Vs. Pluck is a very good set of rules with lots of excellent ideas. Also get yourself the Sudan Wars Sourcebook from TVAG, everything you want to know about the conflict in one volume.

Sorry, that's "the Mahdist Wars Sourcebook"

link

Ah yes forgot those two. SvP is great but I don't think I'm being unfair in suggesting you need a group of players to get the most out of the role playing aspect but with the TFL rules you can even play it solo as the actions are card activated. There is also a role playing element to the TFL rules but not in quite the same way as S v P. I'm definitely not saying one is better than the other they are just different…

I need to order the Sourcebook from TVAG except its a bit expensive in UK with the weak pound.

I often look at these images as I find them quite inspiring. Although 15mm they remind me of what I'm aiming at in 28mm.

link

I do the Sudan wars in 54mm, its a great period for either skirmish or mass battles.

I'm also thinking of doing it in a smaller scale 10mm or 20mm

My preference for all gaming (including Colonial) is for big battles. I do the Sudan in 15mm, mix of Essex, Old Glory, Peter Pig & Two Dragons figures.

Science vs Pluck is indeed a fine game, I've also tried lots and lots of other rules in my eternal quest for something which is both realistic yet not bogged down in reams of modifiers. I have tried to like TSATF, but I don't think I'm its target demographic.

Working on another set at the moment, sort of Afriboria-lite for the Sudan but without the cards.

I am preparing 54mm figs also for either skirmish or larger battles. I just picked up some Timpo gatling guns for my Royal Naval brigade. The TVAG Mahdist Wars Source book is a good resource (recently picked that up as well) and as for rules either sword and the flame or (I am trying personally) Bundock and Bayonets which I found on the great site freewargamesrules.

Besides "Bundok and Bayonets", Bob Cordery has several other free rules he's done for the period:

colonialwargaming.co.uk

Select "Colonial Wargames Rules" from the "Contents" section, and scroll down to the free ones. It wouldn;t hurt to have a good look 'round the rest of the site while you're there.

Allen

Another 54mm Sudan gamer here. The minis from Armies in Plastic are quite nice, and cheaper than 28mm metal.

Rules wise, I have never been able to decide.

Science vs Pluck is one I have owned for awhile now, but still need to get around to actually playing it. If you can get a few like minded gamers together for this one, I think it would give a great feel for the challenges faced by British (or Egyptian) officers in the Sudan.

The Sword and the Flame is a simple and easy set to learn, but it is always a great deal of fun.

One that I haven't seen mentioned is Patrols in the Sudan from Peter Pig. This is a very neat set of rules. The Dervish are constantly popping up and disappearing, the terrain cam move (damned mirages!) and overall it is quite difficult to win as the Imperial forces. It is a very fun and unique game though. For more on it, see here: link (particularly the battle report).

I like SvP (but lack a bunch of players for it), I've played and enjoyed (and recommend to you) Patrols in the Sudan, GASLIGHT, and TSATF, and would also recommend for your pleasure 'Colonial Actions' from TwoHourWargames (which are made to play solo as well as player vs player).

I prefer 15mm for the Sudan because it lets me do vast landscapes with tiny figures, and I can do large unit games or skirmish with the same figures.

Timmo you can get both volumes of the source book for £15.00 GBP each here-

link

They look very interesting and just what i need to get my Sudan plans up and running again.

I've done it in 15mm for POW, which works, although I was foolish enough to fully base for POW which means my Mahdist forces are on 90mm wide bases which has stimied me from looking at alternate rules (I think there may be a long winter's evening or two in a rebasing project, perhaps to have a look at Patrols in the Sudan – Peter Pig rules can be fun)

I used mainly Peter Pig for the British infantry and Camel Corps. Nice dapper little figures. But I used Essex figures for the cavalry. The Mahdists are a mix of Peter Pig and Lancashire Games. Yes there is a size difference but as a mob of charging irregulars in 15mm who really notices?

What struck me was that the British could, with not too much stretching of things, be used as a late Victorian force on the NW Frontier or for the Boer War. (Let the perfectionists scream!)

There's a download available of the Perry article on the first Sudan Campign from WI at PDF link

Michael Asher's Khartoum is a good sweeping overall reference.

For skirmish games there's a good skirmish set called Fire and Steel available from the Keep or they regularly turn up on ebay

Great info all, especially the Source books! I'll probably get them on cd.

Any 28 mini recomendations out there? The Perry Brothers? (a bit expensive in the USA).

Anybody try Rampant Colonialism by Flagship Games?

For cheaper 28mm minis take a look at Old Glory. I have some of their NWF range and the minis are quite nice. Very affordable.

While not entirely accurate, you could use the 28mm plastic Zulu War British Infantry from Wargames Factory.

Uesugi Kenshin,

I have been gaming colonial games since the early 1980's with THE SWORD AND THE FLAME rules sets in both 15mm and 25/28mm with out changing the game scale, movement or firing distances. This is my personal favorite and the set the majority of us play at conventions as well at and my club's gatherings. They are a great skirmish set and can be used for large battles as well. There are about a dozen variations for all sorts of colonial conflicts around the world. The same author also makes 2 other great sets of colonial rules, BY BATTALION FIRE, and 800 FIGHTING ENGLISHMEN, both also highly recommended.

I have been collecting 25/28mm Sudan figures for several years (lost count). I fell in love with the Castaway Arts range from Australia one year at Historicon which started off this huge project. I have added many Old Glory figures to my collection and more recently Perry figs from Age of Glory. I use all the different mfgrs. figures on the table at the same time, but use them in separate units for the most part. I have also added figures from all the other 28mm mfgrs that make Sudan figs, including Britania, Dixon, Copplestone Brit Naval Brigade and a few Somali warriors, Cannon Fodder captured Egyptian gun crew, some Foundry and Connisseur natives and a couple of Bicorne and Redoubt figs. All these can be used on the table at the same time as they have a similar build and size. We even have several unit of Ral Partha smaller 25mm figs. Some have been mounted on slightly taller bases, others are left as is. In my opinion once the battle starts the small differences in size become meaningless and only the action counts in the heat of battle! It's all up to you and your preferences. For instance there is a great and complete range of Sudan figs by Redoubt, but to me they are too large to fit in. I do use a few of their figs though, but not many. There is a size comparison chart on the yahoo colonial wars group site.

Have a great time organizing and painting your new collection.

Here's the links for the majority of the figs I use and the rules sets. I can't remember all the websites and mfgrs, sorry.

sergeants3.com
link
castawayarts.com.au
ageofglory.com (for Perry's)
oldgloryminiatures.com
link
bicorne.net/catalog
dixonminiatures.co.uk
copplestonecastings.co.uk
redoubtenterprises.com

Cheers,

JB

JB, that is terric info. Thank you.

I am definietly going to look into The Sword and Flame further!

I have experience of the following rulesets and think they are all worth looking into:
The Sword and the Flame
Bundok and Bayonet by Bob Cordery (free)
Patrols in the Sudan
I have also heard good things about Too Fat Lardies rules and Science versus Pluck.
More recently I have done a lot more skirmish gaming and for this late 19th Century era I have used Chain Reaction 2.0 from Two Hour Wargames. Its successor, CR3.0 is, I believe, available free at the THW site. My latest project is using a modern ruleset called Ambush Alley for colonial skirmishes – this is proving to be really fun. see link
As for figures I use 28mm for skirmish only, and 6mm and 10mm for skirmishes and larger battles. That said, 15mm may be a good way to go initially for maximum versatility.

I bought some of the Essex 15mm figs. for the Sudan & painted them up. I was pleased with them.

However, I had so many 25mm Ral Partha Colonial figs. already that I eventually sold all of the 15mm figures.

Well, I am doing it in 6mm and 1/72 or 20mm. I have seriously toyed with doing it in 54mm. Since I am already working on 54mm NWF. My buddy Rob is doing it in 25mm with mainly Old Glory figs. He's put on some nice looking games with TSATF. I like Battles for Empire and Field of Battle. too.

Thanks,

John

Our group uses Colonial Adventures by Two Hour Wargames for our 28mm colonial games, and we have a blast. A bonus is that with this rule set, we can all play on the European side and the game can run the Mahdists, or Zulus, or Pathans or whoever we're up against.

I've got some links to books/resources on my Sudan site

sudan1883.blogspot.com

Great stuff Legats!

John, I was wondering how FoB worked for this period. I already own these rules so that would be great if these handled the battles/ armies well.

Jeremy wrote:

I've done it in 15mm for POW, which works, although I was foolish enough to fully base for POW which means my Mahdist forces are on 90mm wide bases which has stimied me from looking at alternate rules (I think there may be a long winter's evening or two in a rebasing project, perhaps to have a look at Patrols in the Sudan – Peter Pig rules can be fun)

I used mainly Peter Pig for the British infantry and Camel Corps. Nice dapper little figures. But I used Essex figures for the cavalry. The Mahdists are a mix of Peter Pig and Lancashire Games. Yes there is a size difference but as a mob of charging irregulars in 15mm who really notices?

What struck me was that the British could, with not too much stretching of things, be used as a late Victorian force on the NW Frontier or for the Boer War. (Let the perfectionists scream!)

I bit the bullet two years ago rebased my 15mm Colonials from POW bases to use with Battles For Empire. Worth the effort as now we use the figures but previously they'd sat in the box for a couple of years.

My Mahdists are a complete mix of figure manufacturers and painting styles so the visual effect is quite nice on the table.

Battles For Empire works better with 15mm figures unless you have a very large table or plan very small games.

Steve P

I believe that FOB does a good job of handling Colonial games. You almost HAVE to use the optional cards though. Nothing like the Sneaky Heathen card being flipped and the native hordes suddenly surge forward again. :-D
My last Colonial game was a Zulu one. Very nasty affair. You know you are in serious trouble when you are relying on your natal Native Contingent to help save you.

The one thing which I think may have to be tweaked though is Cavalry that skirmishes for the Imperial player. The sequence on mountinbg and dismounting doesn't allow much flexibility in the rules. My Natal Native Horse and Frontier Light Horse just didn't feel right in their function. I'm going tyo allow skirmishing cavalry the option of mounting or dismounting (one only) during their move for free.

Love FOB!

Thanks,

John

I have a 25mm collection and have also been toying with the 54mm idea. Volley and Bayonet actually works fairly well for large battles.

Intrigued about using Force on Force (ambush alley) for colonials.

Apprecaite that thread dates back to 2009 but I'm curious to know how it's going. Can someone give an update?

Cheers

Holy thread necromancy, Batman! ;-)

>>>Can someone give an update?

I'll field this one, as I was given clearance to talk about it a bit more openly some time ago.

AAG has produced a set of rules for 19th Century Colonial Wars under the name "To the Last Cartridge". It's a tactical set designed with units of 6-20 figures representing roughly company sized manuver elements. (although there is provision for larger games as well as larger games) It's not just "Force on Force with Martini Henry's. It's a self-contained rules system that uses a heavily modified version of the core FoF mechanics.

The core rules will cover, and include extensive army lists the Zulu War,the Sudan, the 2nd Afghan War, and the 2nd Anglo-Boer War. It's also the first AAG product that will be released with a working points system and support for "pick-up" games as well as their traditional scenario based aproach. If it takes off, there is plenty of scope for expansion. (Our local group is already running some 19th Century European war games using the game mechanics, for example)

The set is fully tested, and will hopefully finally be published later this year.

It's a project I'm pretty excited about…..but I'm more than a bit biased! ;-)

Martin

"To The Last Cartridge" – what a great title!

Sudan is my favourite period and FoF core mechanics are an ideal fit. To say that I can't wait to see these is a MASSIVE UNDERSTATEMENT!

If you need a play tester count me in!

HUBCommish – it may be 5 years since your post but I simply can't allow you to get away with this blasphemy.

The White troops fighting in the Sudan were NOT Europeans.

They were British. Big difference, old chap.

Have a jolly nice day!

Necromancy rules!

And it meant we got to hear about a new set of FoF rules, so result.

And us Brits are Europeans don'tchaknow

Not then, not now, not really ;-)

Even seen a Belgian with a stiff upper lip old chap? Gad, no, it'll be hidden by his big droopy moustache.

>>>"To The Last Cartridge" – what a great title!

Thanks.
Yes, it is pretty catchy. But, sadly, I can't claim to credit for the title. That was suggested early on by another member of the development staff.

>>>If you need a play tester count me in!

Sadly, we are finished with the testing process. Otherwise, I'd sign you right up.

Martin