"In The Grand Manner Cavalry Battle- Alte Fritz" Topic

I have posted pictures of the giant cavalry battle that we fought yesterday using In The Grand Manner Napoleonic rules. The figures were all 25mm to 30mm figures. Each regiment was approximately 4 squadrons strong with 6 to 10 figures per squadron. The French had 3 cavalry corps (light, dragoon and heavy cuirassier divisions plus horse artillery) plus an extra division of lancers. I have no idea what the Allies (Austria, Britain and Russia) had, but it seemed like they had more cavalry than the French. Fog of war, I guess.

link

We played 15 game turns on three 6ft by 24ft tables and there was a lot of "to and 'fro" back and forth cavalry action across the table. It was different and fun having nothing but cavalry on the table, although infantry started to arrive on Turn 11, but hadn't gotten to the front lines by the time we stopped playing for the day. The game will resume on May 30th, so we will have to wait and see how the battle develops.

Thats certainly got a Grand Manner look to it, smashing photos, looks good.

I wish you would stop trying to make my games look so inadequate.

Great photos and sounds like a neat game – I am not much of a cavalry gamer, it always seemed a bit challenging to me – this does inspire me to think about it – further to John's comments, Fritz sets a very high standard!

Inspiring stuff.

Three 6' x 24' tables! Wow!

Looks like a fun battle. The Age of Reason rules also work well for all cavalry battles.

Great stuff, Grand Manner Cavalry dust-ups, how many D6!

John

Now,THAT'S cavalry!

Just to clarify, the game was organized by Keith Leidy and he owns all of the troops (although a lot of the French used to be mine, before I sold my collection to him – it's nice to play with my own stuff and not have to own it).

I just had the honor of being able to play in the game.

I'm going to practice my dice rolling to see if I can get more "6's". It's all in the wrist, I am told.

Lovely.. A PROPER cavalry battle..look forwards to part 2

My gosh how big is his game room!
VR
James Mattes

awesome,

how napoleonics should be played at 1 to 20!

Humble respect and loud applause.

It's not just the wrist action, shouting 'Huzzzar' at the point of dice release, is a sure way to roll loadsa sixes!
(ahem!)

John

I am willing to try anything, and I do mean anything, in order to improve my ability to roll 6's. If that means placing a dead toad atop my head, then I will make it so.

just get a die that has 6 on each face.

Play a game where 1's are hits.

Just wondered why in what's obviously a largish game you were using the cavalry in individual squadrons – or that's how it looks in the pics? Haven't you tried using them by the regiment
i.e. all 4 sqaudrons= 32 figs in a French Dragoon/Cuirassier regt. In a mass block – 1 or 2 sqns wide : 4 or 2 sqns deep – Try it!

Because in big cavalry battles in ITGM its usually the side with reserves that win the day, even if its only a couple of squadrons, also if the enemy has any artillery (and they seem to have plenty in this game) then cavalry in more than a single rank tends to get shot up badly.
… There is usually no point to using cavalry as a regt in ITGM, there is little it can do that 2 double squadrons can't do better (apart from taking on enemy batteries).

loaded dice…

nah.. its just a strain of bad dice luck. it will get better.
maybe try to sneak into a catholic church and give your dice a bath in nice holywater. or take them to mekka, or whatever.

Clearly Christot you never had the pleasure of playing the rules properly with Peter Gilder!
Name dropper that I am ….

I think you'll find the rules have changed a wee bit since PG's first version,(though not much as far as cavalry melees are concerned) So I think what is true now was true then…. Use your cavalry in regts and frankly, you'll get your arse kicked…and I still play a lot of games with Gerry and Mike at the WHC ;o)

Aaah that would explain a few things – and really supports my feelings on the way the rules have been bastardised – having been taught the rules by Peter & enjoyed many games with him & others (including Mike & Gerry). We stopped going to the WHC when Gerry started messing around with the rules which i felt (& a good many others felt) spoilt the balance of the games – the battles started to "feel" as if they were being tweaked to achieved a "desired" result rather than played out as a game – i.e. for enjoyment ;-)
I kind of felt that the "competition gamer mentality" had taken over – (a bit like WAB) – which for me somewhat spoilt the enjoyment of a good game in amicable company ;-)
Peter understood that the rules were merely a vehicle and that the essential ingredient was to have a good game – and sell lots of miniatures!

I'd totally disagree, on just about every point…I've played games with a variety of umpires in various places and I've never met any who matched Mike and Gerry for ingenuity, fairness, and for designing a good game, for all the players. In fact, I've talked with them both about this and the single, over-riding factor they go for in designing a game is ensuring that all players will have a good time, in fact, if the game is ever tweaked, then its to make sure the game is enjoyable for everyone.
As for their rule re-write, other than tidying up a lot of anomalies and "cheese" the only changes were really to make the rules a little less pro-French, which Peter's original set (and scenarios) were. I can't think of a less competitive environment.
Perhaps you should come back, I think you might be pleasantly surprised.

I would like to hear more about the use of cavalry as a regiment in the ITGM rules. We are using the original hand written play sheets that Gilder wrote in long hand. (I've noticed that the newer WHC version makes it easier for cavalry to break through infantry).

The game master (Keith) was telling me that if you want to take out a battery, it is better to use the whole regiment because it increases the chances that you will survive the cannister and then get in amongst the gunners.

Admittedly we are kind of locked into the mindset of using the cavalry by squadrons. The obvious problem is if you do not rally the regiment, then you lose it for 3 or 4 game turns as it goes through walk about and returning to its own lines. On the other hand, those 5 to 1 odds can be really tasty and improve your chances of rallying or cutting down the opponent. Hmm, I need to give this more thought.

Tell me more Luke Warm. This sounds intriguing.

I have to say that I'm not fully in agreement with Christot on the subject of using cavalry in regiments. One advantage is that all four squadrons (assuming that it's a four squadron regiment) are classed as charging and are not therefore subject to artillery fire. In addition even if you lose the first round of melee your overall losses are taken against the four squadrons which means a lower percentage loss.
There is also the advantage that having already charged, the two supporting squadrons are automatic reinforcements. Finally if you win the melee you will likely have less casualties due to not having your supports killed by artillery and will have more chance of rallying on the spot.
On the downside even if you win the melee and don't rally on the spot then it's a whole regiment out of the battle for several turns. Though this would also be the case if you had reinforced in the second or third round of melee.
I should point out that this only applies to cavalry melee and not for charges against infantry or guns. Personally I use heavy cavalry in regiments whenever I get the chance.

Apologies to anyone not familiar with ITGM

Bdr

garagegamer.blogspot.com

Don't misunderstand me here…perhaps we are all speaking at cross-purposes..I agree entirely as far as using cavalry by the regt- the more you can get into a melee the better! What I don't think is so smart is manouvering (and then charging) as a single regt, as opposed to in 2 double squadrons or four singles or whatever. Firstly, you are always going to be a juicy artillery target (bound to be 2 deep, and if you are 2 squadrons wide, an A class target) If you were in 2 doubles at least they would be just B class.
A 3 gun horse battery firing twice a turn aganst an A class target for a turn or 2 will do a lot of damage, probably in the region of 6 to 10 casualties…not insignificant.
In the face of enemy artillery I tend to go for single ranks. The ideal situation is one where you have artillery and he doesn't, but thats got to be achieved. With no enemy artillery threat, then regts are viable, but, being in a whole regt can decrease your options, its difficult for a single regt to charge more than one target. You can't easily peel off a squadron(s) to face a new threat. A massed regt is not a lot of good against an infantry target (a single squadron in a single rank will do the job just as well and take fewer casualties.
Your opponent might get cute and just chuck a single squadron of lights against you. It gets cut down, but unless you've lots of other plusses (elite, general etc) there's a very good chance you won't rally (no plus for fresh cavalry, perhaps?)and then his other three squadrons can make mischief while your victorious regt is rallying for at least 3 turns. Even if you do rally he will have bought himself a turn to get set up/ out of the way! and when you rally you can still only hit one target.
Against batteries it is a good option, but probably not as good as 3 seperate squadrons in single rank (1 or 2 are bound to get in), again, with fewer casualties.
One the whole I'd go for 2x16's or 12s over a 32 or a 24…but..in the end, it all DEPENDS…the tactical situations can be so varied, which, after all, is the beauty of the game in the first place.
Cheers Chris
itinerantwargamer.blogspot.com

I agree we may be talking at cross purposes. I was thinking along the lines of heavy cavalry divisions engaging each other. These tend to have a fair few elite cuirassier units and a cavalry staff officer that you can attach to charging units.
In this case the tactic of using one squadron which is then cut down causes all sorts of problems. Taking into account all of the above plus the bonus for fresh cavalry and a cut down the likelihood of a rally on the spot is quite high (I'm going to have to go and check this aren't I?). The rallying cavalry can then choose its own target as it can't be charged due to the "cut down ground" the best that the oppnent can hope for is a counter charge.
Even worse if the single squadron isn't cut down and routs there is a chance that it will pin some of its supporting cavalry, leaving it open to a free hack.
I fully agree that you need to be very wary of enemy artillery but there are ways of countering that, for instance throwing a sacrificial light squadron at it. As Chris says it all depends on the situation but given a choice I still opt for using regiments when I can.

Bdr

not sure what happened there….

I think we digressed ;-)
Bombardier has rather expertly covered all the points.

Keith is indeed correct – if you absolutely need to take out a battery then a regimental attack is the best way – Guard Lights are the ultimate at this!
However – and this is what puzzled me slightly in chistot's comments – is why would you try to take out batteries in the first place unless it's really, really required – hot targets are 1) Unformed/disordered or weakened troops & 2) Enemy cavalry.
Most of the time there simply isn't the space to charge a battery – so why charge 2 squadrons wide – unless your using the smaller size squadrons (6-8 figs)or you're facing a very wide battery (Russian – oh!oh!). You probably just won't find a gap charge thru.

Individual squadrons are better against things like: Squares – 'cos they can fit between 'em
For pursuing
For generally being annoying ;-)

There's quite a good chance of the "all cut down" and "rallying immediately" which means you often get a chance to create that all important gap to break thru into the enemy. If you don't so what? He has three squadrons that can annoy you but are vunerable to fire – your troops rally back and hey presto in three turns they'll be availble to save the day or take out another target.

Think GRAND MANNER :-)
PS Use skirmishers on artillery if you can ;-)

As I said the tactical situations are so varied that the permutations and reguirements are almost endless.
The regt attack is A way to take out a battery, it certainly isn't the best one.
Take a typical situation:
A light regt of 24 versus a 4 gun 6lb btty.Lets not go down the road of 3 gun btty's because they are a doddle to take out with less cavalry, or use hvy cav, because as a regt they will get badly shot up before they get there (low movement-) and with guard lights it is indeed a piece of P***, and I'd still only bother to use single ranks- total waste chucking in 32 or 40 (unless against 6 gun btty's, but thats a whole different ball game) .
Back to the regt charge: Even assuming the light cav incur no casualties before they charge (actually highly unlikely for such a juicy target- but we'll skip that), then 3 6lb guns + a howitzer get 20pts of cannister at +2 for all guns hitting. On an average roll of 7 this equals 5 casualties. Meaning the cav regt have to roll 9 on 3d6 to close, not bad, but not brilliant. If the cav operated as 3 single squadrons (can't charge 4 because of a max of 20 figs wide charging a btty) then the guns would only do 4 casualties (+2 all guns hitting, -4 single rank cav)so 1 squadron would take 2 hits, 2 squadrons would 1 hit. Meaning 1 squadron needs a 13 (probably flees) but 2 squadrons each only need a 6 – Much better odds of getting into the btty (even 6 cav are likely to break the batty).
Taking out btty's either by C/B fire or cav charges is vital in ITGM. The best way is probably a combination of the 2, shoot the btty down to 2nd or third bracket THEN charge it, A good chance it will retreat or rout. If it doesn't you'll get him anyway.
Why charge a btty?…..The game is ALL about combined arms, and if you have artillery and your opponent doesn't then then you are in the money. Your advantage might not become apparent for a few turns, but as you said, think Grand Manner!..its what effect an action has in a few moves time that is often more important than its immediate results. So if suddenly you have artillery and he doesn't you can THEN afford to mass your cavalry in multiple ranks, or sit back and pound him for a few turns.
Charging squares is a TOTAL waste of time even with cuiraissier unless the infantry are very poor quality and/or badly shot up/have lots of routs around them then its worth it.
(If you are such a plonker as to allow your btty's be fired on by skirmishers, then you desrve all you get)
In the end my final comment is simple; with a roughly even level of forces I would LOVE my opponent to play against me using his cavalry in regts!

Well that was pithy!

In the end its just numbers….roll enough 1's and you'll be stuffed regardless,..Rolling nothing but 6's however will usually ensure victory no matter what your tactics are- Thats what Fritz needs to concentrate on!

I would continue but i have the feeling he likes the last word & it'll only encourage him ;-) ….
Just have a go yourselves Fritz – try it out – throw loads of dice (die?) and enjoy a good game in fine company.

PS on the subject of having the last word – your set-up looks wonderful Bombardier – I'm most impressed!

I'm enjoying the comments on the different ITGM tactics and hope to try some of your ideas out soon. I wish that May 30th (date of round 2 of the game) was tomorrow as I'm eager to play.

Someone mentioned the problems of not having enough space to deploy cavalry on a broader frontage. It's ironic, but true – one would think that you would have plenty of room on a 30ft table, but you often do not.

I also like the comment about taking your time to set up and organize a combined arms attack a couple of turns ahead of the current turn. Good advice.

I've been practicing my backhand dice tossing technique. It's all in the wrist as they say.

I only use ITGM for my Napoleonic games. As it's 2009 anniversary of Campaign on the Danube etc I've had a few games with my Austrian army against the French. A cavalry melee developed on my left flank with my 36 man Uhlan regiment against a 32 man French Dragoon regiment. All figure were in base to base contact and so all could take part. Gaining 1 in 3 for lancer in the first round I threw 48 dice to my oppoents 43. How many sixes did I roll?…not one! Does anyone want an Austrian Uhlan regiment? One previous owner, low mileage, high body count.

Tony, I feel your pain. I've lost count of the number of times that my lads have been let down by my inability to throw sixes. However I suspect I've probably forgotten as many occasions when it's swung the other way.
I think Mike Ingham did once experiment with a table much like the infantry and artillery firing ones which would provide a more consistent result, but I don't know what happened to it.

Bdr

garagegamer.blogspot.com

50 something dice with only 1 six is my record…On a brighter note, I also remember getting once 9 sixes out of 16..which was nice (and it was against Gerry, which made it even nicer;o))

We've just started doing WSS at my club in Earlswood with the rules based upon those used at the WHC. A simlar system as ITGM but with 4,5 or 6 for some cavalry types and 5 or 6 for others to kill. Completely lethal but at least you get a quick result.

blimey, Tony…it does sound like "lethal" might be an understatement!

On my last two visits to the WHC, the same person has thrown six, sixes with six dice against me. I've never seen it done before or by anyone else. He's coming with us this year so I'm going to make sure we're on the same side.

Bdr.

garagegamer.blogspot.com

Jerry Elliot beat me like a drum the very first time I played ITGM at WHC. It was Austerlitz and the sun did not shine on the French that day as I watched BOTH Lannes' and Bernadotte's corps rout off the table. The Emperor was not pleased.

Needless to say, I had plenty of spare time to help Mike Ingham serve the afternoon tea and snack.

I played Austrians in the second game of the week long event and found them to be more forgiving (due to those nice 48 and 60 man units).