"20mm Yank paras" Topic

Gods own scale

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What minis were those? They look great.

God's own scale, maybe, but many would say they are on the Devil's bases! 8)=

Superb work, by the way!

WOW
Thanks for sharing those

Amalric

Those are very nice. Excuse me while I hang my head in shame/envy and shuffle out of the room.

superb Daryl, that red cross "under" the netting on the helmet is just a wonderful touch.

Real class :-)

Fantastic!

What minis were those? They look great.

@ chuck05 TQD castings available from Sgt Mess;

sgtsmess.co.uk/tqd

Great idea!!! Yank 20mm paras! Yank them right out of there! Why does everyone do elite troops? What about some common or garden dogfaces? Or even second string troops?

The painting is very well done, which makes the fact its Tan just more heartbreaking.

What does that mean? I'm confused.

I don't see tan, I see faded olive drab, which can have a "tan" appearance when faded.

I believe US paras wore olive green on one occasion and summer khaki (yellowish tan) on another. I don't remember for sure, but probably khaki for Overlord and green for Market.

Bizzare comments, the M1942 jump suit was Tan/Kahki Drill in colour and was used from the first combat jump in north africa untill (sicily and D-day inclusive)operation "Dragoon",(plus smatterings later on) the M1943 suit (OD in colour) wasn't adopted untill operation market garden.

Lovely work Daryl!

Looks spot on to me:

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Bizarre comments indeed regarding tan and Khaki drill

atthefront.com/khaki.htm

You will notice the colour of the 1942 jump jacket is olive drab 3. That is the same colour (albeit, faded) as the knee patches and elbow patches.

look spot off to me

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Are you saying that m1943 suits aren't markedly darker than the m1942 suits?

Are either the figures as painted differ maskedly from the period photograph, or the reproduction/original uniforms as presented? Even the darkest example in the photograph is not a long way away from what id consider simmiliar to commonwealth KD (which can vary from almost white to the colour of battledress).

Also what do those uniforms look like in natural light?

If the m1942 uniform is "obviously" olive drab, then why did 82nd airborne pathfinders feel the need to paint their uniforms with olive drab paint?
And why the need to change to the m1943 suit, that was considered more suited to nw europe?

ultimately do the figures look like the chap in the period photo, my answer to that is yes they do, the name of the paint used to paint the figures and the name of the dye used is irrelevant.

I have never mentioned m1943 suits.
OD3 is lighter than OD7, but they are both a shade of green.
If the figures are dated as D-day, which I would assume they would be, OD 7 was not likely to have been used for cut down patches, that material would still be OD3.

That website is by the leading manufacturer of repro uniforms. They do not 'do' Tan uniforms because they never existed. Basing your colours on 60 year old faded kit or vinegar effect colour photographs will make you do tan/beige coloured US paras and Tan/beige coloured US marines.

BTW, I am not sure if you are aware, but the photograph you linked is one in a whole series and is overexposed, darker appearing darker and lighter appearing lighter. Thats why the bazooka appears almost black

that is the crux of it. Almost every nationality has a 'browning of uniforms' from what they should be. French, British, Russian , US, all get browned up. the only ones who seem to escape this are the germans who suffer a greying up.

BTW, Lots of people painted their canvas stuff for a whole variety of reasons. To preserve it, to camoflage it, to avoid being seen and even to help being recognised. In the US armies case, The lighness of the uniform was why they adopted the darker OD and I assume that was the same reason the pathfinders painted it, not because they wanted a contrasting colour!

BTW, OD3 is the same shade as other non jump uniforms used by the standard infantry, but nobody ever suggests you can paint an entire infantry division or armoured division in tan/beige coloured uniforms. Why would that be?

Your key source suggests that "OD no.3" is a "broad church", he is pointing out that his may be greener than you might expect based on what you see in say "band of brothers" or SPR, he also comments that these items varied in colour due to manufacturer variations

Quote from at the front:

"3. Why does everyone call it "khaki" then? Used and faded OD no3 gear and uniforms often appear beige. The keyword is used. That's where the fantasy/ stupidity gets started. When new, they range from grass-stain green, to light brown, to gold, khaki-gray, to a brownish beige. To fuss about our products (or anyone else's) they must be compared to new condition (unissued) original samples. Not Grandpa's M41 that he wore at Kasserine Pass.
In practice, dying wasn't (and isn't) a perfect science. WWII uniforms and gear come in countless shades of OD no3. This was not due to some elfin impulse to torment collectors in the future, but rather as a result of dozens of different fabric mills finishing millions of yards of fabric in a hurry. Anyone who tells you that all US uniforms are the exact same color is a blithering idiot. Or colorblind. More likely the former."

Which is why i find it a stretch to suggest that the figures are wrong, there simply are no absolutes brand new let alone once they've seen some wear, some were greener others were more brown. Also to suggest the photograph is over exposed is interesting, is not the c-47 he's standing in also "olive drab"? and it looks it, the bazooka may look darker simply because its got a fresh coat of paint on it or secondly because it is smaller, the "scale effect" a larger object looks lighter as it reflects more light than a smaller object apparently painted the same colour.

Your sutlers point is "our stuff may vary from what you expext, but thats because the real thing varied from what you expect" not because everything was olive, some was olive in colour (a very pale olive) other unissued examples
appear a golden brown (some even look KD), i suspect in natural hight they may end up looking paler still.

I fear we shall agree to disagree, its rather subjective, but thats my point, you talk in absolutes when there werte none, just a grumpy sutler tired of explaining to reenactors why his uniforms don't match their expectations.

I notice you missed this bit out….

"WWII US uniforms and gear are a shade of GREEN. NOT TAN OR BEIGE.
Yes, you may have seen tan or beige original WWII stuff- but that's used and faded- or the one true khaki uniform that did exist- the summer service dress"

Yet above, You said this

'the M1942 jump suit was Tan/Kahki Drill in colour'

The truth is the uniforms are OD3 , olive drab and that is fact not subjective. What they fade to and how they fade is a different point and it is never uniform nor does it lose the green tinge. What is most important is the majority of surviving uniforms are still shades of green, not tan.

the man has painted his figures beautifully in a colour that perpeptuates a false impression of the shade used for US para uniforms,
He isn't the first, and he will not be the last, especially when painting guides suggest it!

Hey Daryl, bet you wished you hadn't bothered!

Cracking figures, by the way………..

John

Then why have the cited unissued examples displayed lost theirs? your source contradicts itself, it first states just what you say "they were olive", then it says "When new, they range from grass-stain green, to light brown, to gold, khaki-gray, to a brownish beige" let alone how they look in varying light levels, against a particular background, let alone camera settings film used etc etc.

Dye is transparent, it isn't like paint pigment, light passes through it and reflects off what it dyes so its colour is varied dramatucally by what it dyes. let alone variation within dye batches

Cotton is a natural fibre, its rather difficult to grow and weave cotton to be exactly the same from different regions, therefore batches of cotton will look different. particularly when they come from distant parts of a nation, cotton probably varies from one part of the field to another within the same farm.

Sir, what really sticks in my craw about your argument is this its absolutist, founded on an article that not only contradicts itself it also contradicts your argument, you're then using this argument to belittle anothers work.

Have you ever submitted your work to be scrutinised in such a way? No one is above critisism, sure, fine but at least base that criticism on something tangible

Whats next, your feldgrau isn't right?

Nope, I just said it was a pity they were 'tan' since Ive yet to see a re-enactor wearing that colour of uniform nor seen any in any museum that match that shade. That would be a total of none in any online photos, None in the re- enactor shop in St Mere Eglise, none in the museum itself none in any of the other D-day museums and none in the bastogne museums either.

You claimed they were the 1942 tan uniform Khaki Drill. I've pointed out its olive drab OD3 and is a shade of green just as is the 1941 jacket. I have also pointed out that there was a lot of other stuff supplied in OD3, but no one considers that those items all uniformly fade to tan/beige for the rest of the army.

I suggest you try to find something tangable that illustrates a tan uniform in action. I wouldnt look at any reenactors thought because they all go throught the 'tan' ones are actually green OD3. Some of them will not let you join if it isnt OD3 or OD7.

I take it you haven't considered that this is actually something to do with wargamers just painting what they think a colour is based on, which itself is artists painting a shade the way they think it is and it becoming a wargamer's self perpetuating myth?

When it comes to critiscism, no one is harsher on me than me, which is why I repainted my own US paras.

From a distance, faded olive drab has an appearance of being a shade of "tan" to me (appearance being the key word here). It's called "scale effect", a full-size object viewed from some distance away will appear to be a lighter color than when examined at close quarters. Though it may be up to debate as to what someone else sees when viewing faded olive drab from a distance, it's hard to debate scale effect in itself.

We're not talking full scale here (obviously the figure is only 1/72 scale), so though the At The Front website makes a very valid and historical point, it has nothing to do with what the eye sees when viewed from a distance (or small scale in this example). They print their uniforms to match the exact color as in WWII, not to match what the eye sees at 50 or 100 yards away which is different than when viewed right up on it.

So while a person may paint their miniatures as the At The Front website explains and be historically correct in color for full scale, the figures won't be correct as seen on the table since the figure are in small scale and not full scale. It's really a very easy concept.

I have also pointed out that there was a lot of other stuff supplied in OD3, but no one considers that those items all uniformly fade to tan/beige for the rest of the army.

OK, I consider that OD3 soon faded to look yellowish-tan (summer khaki). The wind-breaker type jackets worn by most US enlisted men (non-tankers) in NW Europe sure did. Officers and tankers both had jackets of a darker, greener shade (maybe OD7?), tho not of the same cut.

Their pants and shirts were OD wool, but usually look mud-brown or dark khaki in movies; but that's an effect of Technicolor film. (Remember the green double-breasted shirt that Captain Kirk sometimes wore on the original Star Trek? It wasn't green at all, in real life. It was gold, like his other shirts. But somehow, because of the texture, Technicolor rendered it green. Same kind of thing.)

As for scale effect: A small (or distant) patch of a given color will look DARKER than a large amount of the exact same paint, dye, etc. That's why, when we paint our small miniatures we need to go a shade or two lighter than the actual paint chip or sample of cloth.

Don, there are lots of original used uniform items that are a faded olive green shade as in 99% and thats after 65 years.

DM,
This is not scale effect….Scale effect is purely about light reflection and diffusion. It is why we dry brush. You cannot dry brush a base colour in green to make it appear tan, no matter how much white you add.

Lighter or darker has nothing to do with it either, since that doesnt change a colour from green based to yellow
based.
Since Don mentioned Star Trek, Doppler shift maybe….but not scale effect.

Shame, despite your beautiful paintjob they are apparently complete rubbish Daryl?….I bet you are gutted…seeing as as they don't match up to the expectations of the button counters you may as well give them to me….unless of course you don't give a flying F%$% what some Tw*T on here says.

What christot says :) :) :)

Thx for the comments chaps, the pics are not very good and im very happy with how they turned out snd thats all that really matters

Look forward to seeing kevanG's 20mm US Para efforts, though I cant see a link to the pics on this thread, maybe you posted to somewhere else???, oh and when you post them please list the colours used

Ohh, feel the love….

But I'll repeat what I said above,

the painting is very well done.

And I dont own any 20mm nor intend too.

Please post a link to a good photographic representation of OD3 please.

Even the unfaded OD3 in this pic looks more tan than green to me:

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If you ever see an olive that color, I'd advice you not to eat it!

..and the khaki shirt at the front here looks green.

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kevanG: your link doesn't work.

… that doesnt change a colour from green based to yellow"

If the blue fades or bleaches out of green, yellow is what is left! (blue + yellow = green)

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dunno why the link went west…

The blue alone fades because of what? Sunlight should affect the whole dye, chemical bleaching could effect one component.

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If you read that page, you will notice they mention the suntan uniforms and how no paratrooper jump outfits were made that colour.

Has there been an misidentification that the colouring of this following outfit known as the M42 fatigues in light shade (and actually worn off duty by early mediterranian US paratroopers)

wwiiimpressions.com/hbt.html

…..is actually what should be this one?

The M42 jump suit…..

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And this incorrect assumption is perhaps reinforced by items like this jumpsuit which have been completely washed out….notice how the green has turned ,errr, blue! Must be because the yellow has washed out or bleached out.

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And why is it washed out?

Well, read about Cecil Simmons Jacket here,

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Drastically faded after the CC2 Gas impregnation for Normandy was "cooked" out.

but when it has NOT been cooked out, it looks like this..

rallypointmilitaria.com/?p=39

You see, Don,

I spent a lot of time trying to find any historical proof that suntan shaded M42 jump suits existed and were in common use. Everything I found just directly contradicted that assumption. Surely the wwhole cross section of wargamers cannot be wrong because it is hugely common to paint them in light suntan shade?
Well, No re-enactors use them, no repo manufacturer's make them. Any form of tan outfit either looks like a washed out rag or is perfectly shaded in a way that does not suggest a naturally faded garment

Despite painting guides saying you can paint them light sand, if your paras wear jump suits, you are only safe going green. If you want sand, get some US figures in fatigue dress or paint the one guy who had a bad wash day.

If you wish to take up the mantle of finding the sand based uniforms, I am more than happy to wish you more luck than I had.

The khaki shirt in your picture looks green-ish. So what? Khaki is a greenish tan or brown!

I do not maintain that the blue alone fades, I just offer it as a way that a green cloth could turn yellowish. I don't say that it did, just that it could.

I certainly don't see any blue uniform in the pictures you linked to.

The fatigues you picture were a grayish green, tho the ones in the picture are either very faded or the picture was overexposed.

I'm quite willing to concede that the M42 suit was a light olive drab to start with. But as some of your own pictures show, it often faded to tan/beige/khaki/whatever you want to call it. Whether that was caused by the CC2, sunshine, too many washes, too much starch, or too much bleach is immaterial.

I don't claim that the suit was made out of "suntan" or light khaki to start with. Basically, I don't much care anyway. I have no horse in this race, as they say. I'm merely saying that the color Daryl G used on his figures looks pretty close to the early "paratroop suits" to me. I'm not an expert. You may be right. But you have not convinced me you are right. Some of your own pictures contradict you.

Obviously, I haven't convinced you either.

Let's drop it.

I had the tan horse and it just didnt run, no matter how hard I kicked it.

One of the links you supplied had this on the next page:

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Several years ago, I acquired an M42 reinforced jump jacket from Jim Colucci, a veteran of H/502. Jim told me he won a drawing to come to the states on a War Production tour, shortly after the Bastogne campaign. Like others, Jim had turned-in his M42 jumpsuit, to be replaced by rigger-modified M43s. But he wanted a tan jumpsuit to wear during the Tour. He entered a building full of barracks bags belonging to men who were KIA or MIA. Opening one at random, he found this jacket, but was not familiar with the original owner, a 'Delong'.

So if a Veteran calls the suit Tan using the source you provided against the Tan suit I think its a case of tomato or tomato.

I also own a Parson jacket that is OD3 which depending on the light can be described as greenish, brownish or beige.

I also was given a Marine Marpat digital woodland cap a few years ago (genuine not a repo) and the colours on that did the same, the browns could be dark, pale or even pink depending on the light.

I think in summer light against lush green vegetation of Normandy OD3 would look very tan, or even at night the OD3 even if pristine greenish shade would still look very bright in the dark.

Colours do change their nature when placed next to other stronger colours.

Dang fine work Daryl…

Brad :)

Lovely figs Daryl… Some of your best work. The red cross behind the net is very clever. I hate you! ;-)

I've read repeated references by US paras to wanting to keep their tan jumpsuits.
I've also seen re-enactors in tan on web sites.

I would also point out that the argument is somewhat moot.
If you see high quality colour footage of yanks in NWE late 44 into 45 they are very revealing. In the back of a given truck you can see any number of radically different colours of green in infantry uniforms.
So I reckon that there is no such thing as a standard definitive colour for us ww2 infantry.
I would think it highly likely the same went for paras.

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Some medeterranean re enactors.

Interestingly, the same uniforms look more mustard coloured in the dark, very green in the light

It appears from the photo's of the minis that both 42 and 44 uniforms are being worn by the paratroopers…?

Fortunately I popped in my time machine last night and went back to check all the colours for you Daryl, good news there spot on.